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Some minorities dont play the "Race" as offen or not at all and yet they dont get treated equally neither.
From my side of the fence, if it were not for the Blacks and the Civil rights movement, we'd still be living in the days of segragation, Im not convinced that if these folks stopped playing the race card now and again, things would continually get better since history has a nasty habbit of repeating itself and be conveniently forgotten.
Because most people know that it's the truth most of the time, even though they won't admit it. If you put two different races in the same situation which is based off a white perspective you'll see why minorities pull the race card. Whites created this racism in this world and now it has gone to far to be forgotten. We know some whites are good and I appreciate ones like that but for the others it's just no explanation. We aren't all the same I understand that, but to get respect you have to give it.
I would tell them to stop feeling guilty about something that has nothing to do with them and that they have no control over.
Okay that's fine. I'm just saying there are white people who feel guilty for benefiting from white privilege.
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What does sexual harassment have to do with anything? Yes, I said racism still happens today, it shouldn't, but you can't hold an entire race accountable for the actions of a select few. That's like saying all liberals suck b/c Obama sucks. Makes no sense, does it?
In that instance, two guys were accused of sexually harassing me when in reality we were just having a conversation. But someone else saw us chatting and assumed the worst case scenario about them. There were several factors at play, but race was definitely one of them. They were two black sighted men and I was one blind white woman. Compound race, gender, and disability, and the effects of any one of them alone become more exaggerated. But when you see several factors at play, you also realize how much each factor adds to someone's assumptions or thought processes.
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So maybe the old worn out clothing makes them think she's your helper? I don't know. Maybe they think he's gay for helping you. Another false assumption. Same as the one that the black lady is your helper. Your roommate is white but yet there are people making false assumptions about him. Obviously race has nothing to do with it! People tend to call it like they see it, whether they are perceiving things correctly or not. But again, who cares what they think?
My grandmother makes a point to dress well and people assume she's my caretaker. Every time I'm with a black person, regardless of how they dress or behave, people assume they're working for me. And every time I'm with a white person, people assume I'm in some sort of relationship with them. I think it's pretty safe to assume that it just might be somewhat related to race. It's not a one-time thing. It happens to me every day.
In my roommate's case race doesn't have to do with it cause we're the same race. But I'm pointing out how an assumption like "you're in a relationship" turns into "you're working for her" when you add race to the mix. I realize that "that black woman and deafblind white woman are lesbians married to each other" probably isn't the first thing that comes to mind for most people, especially in the Bible Belt where people don't even consider homosexuality an option most of the time, but there is something to be said for the fact that people always assume a black person is my subordinate and a white person is my equal.
It's not about caring what people think, because honestly I don't. The whole point is that is the very fabric of racism today. Most of racism today pops up in the assumptions people make and the way they think. That's why I keep on talking about assumptions and thought processes--because that is where you're most likely to find racism these days, flying right below the radar, or riding some wave. Not strong enough to be written into law anymore but still strong enough to be written into unspoken social rules. Not strong enough to be used as a reason on its own most of the time, but just strong enough to be one of the reasons behind "sorry, we already found the ideal candidate for the job" (when they haven't).
Racism is in this place right now where it's easy to see but hard to pinpoint and nearly impossible to call people on cause it's almost always couched in some other reasoning like "well maybe it's because of how they were behaving" or "maybe it's because of how they were dressed." That's what's making it so hard for people to progress further right now, because it's just subtle enough in most instances the ones being racist aren't even aware of it and the targets of racism can't call them out on it without being dismissed as playing "the race card."
So how do we move forward? If we want to move forward, everyone has to be willing to admit when they're racist. Everyone has to be willing to examine themselves and catch themselves when they're having a racist thought--and notice how I say "everyone"--not just white people. Everyone has to be willing to admit they were racist, and everyone has to be willing to create an environment where we can feel safe enough to admit when we're racist, so that we don't deny it for fear of being attacked.
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That's just weird that someone would think that of a group of people. I honestly cannot offer any insight into that scenario, aside from that maybe these people are just morons?
Hey, you and I agree on something.
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Yes, people are racist, I have said this. But it's not widespread. People will always judge on first appearances, that's a fact of life. Unless someone is discriminating against a black person or gay person or a deaf-blind person or whatever the case may be, who cares? I have never seen you pull the "deaf-blind card" as you can own up to your faults, from what I've seen. You very well could pull that card, just like a black person could pull the race card, but neither has any more merit than the other. It's all about feeling sorry for yourself instead of feeling empowered and motivated when someone criticizes you.
Why would I attribute my faults to my deaf-blindness when they have nothing to do with it? My faults are a result of my personality. Everyone has weaknesses--it's part of being human. That said, if someone discriminates against me for being deaf-blind and then accuses me of playing the deaf-blind card when I call them out them on it, there's no question I'll be annoyed. It's denigrating to have my opinion dismissed and to not be trusted enough to know when I'm being discriminated against. I know when I'm being discriminated against because I'm the one walking in deaf-blind shoes.
To bring the discussion back to original topic, don't you think of all people, black people would know the best when they're being discriminated against based on their race? They are the ones living in the skin they live in; they are always seeing racism in action because they are the target of it. (Note: I realize other races are targeted too but since this discussion is mainly about white on black racism and the history behind it, I'm focusing on that for now.) White people have the choice to open their eyes to it or remain blind to it but people of color don't have that choice because it's directed at them. Don't you think they just might have a bit more insight into how racism plays out?
Why would I attribute my faults to my deaf-blindness when they have nothing to do with it? My faults are a result of my personality. Everyone has weaknesses--it's part of being human.
Exactly. That's my entire point. And, you have my apologies as I thought you were male.
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To bring the discussion back to original topic, don't you think of all people, black people would know the best when they're being discriminated against based on their race? They are the ones living in the skin they live in; they are always seeing racism in action because they are the target of it. (Note: I realize other races are targeted too but since this discussion is mainly about white on black racism and the history behind it, I'm focusing on that for now.) White people have the choice to open their eyes to it or remain blind to it but people of color don't have that choice because it's directed at them. Don't you think they just might have a bit more insight into how racism plays out?
Not really. I could say that I'm discriminated against due to being a woman anytime I am turned down for a job, etc. but that probably couldn't be further from the truth. It's all a little paranoid, if you ask me. These people have been conditioned by their parents and grandparents to assume whites are racist toward them. I'm not saying it's necessarily their fault, but in a way, it is, b/c they are free to change it. To use your words, they can open their eyes.
I'm heading to bed but I'll try to remember to respond to the rest of your post tomorrow.
Interesting you mention the Germans. One could argue that the real heroes were the black war vets who had to endure being treated with more disdain by their own countrymen upon their return than the German POW's, but who still managed to serve their country with honor. As Condoleeza Rice mentioned once, those brave soldiers had faith in America even when America didn't have faith in them.
You are right and that is exactly what my husband was saying. But they were not the only troops over there giving their lives for this country. My father-in-law was a foot soldier in Italy. You surely realize that in the Viet Nam War there were black troops too. There were black troops fighting for the South in the Civil War.
It was the man he was talking to who thought Obama and MLK were more important than these troops. These troops have no power to end the wars, they just put their lives in harms way for their country. There is nothing greater one can do for another than to lay down his life for him. Our troops are overseas doing that right now and they are made up of many races. I don't think that any one race should be put above another when we are talking about our American troops.
Which is more important to a person, that they are a particular race or that they are American. I think being an American should be more important than to be any race.
Most people doing all the whining have never done anything for anyone but themselves. I will say again that they are very immature and selfish. One black pastor in South Carolina said that the black students that are complaining about going to school on MLK Day would honor him more if they went to school and learned something.
I don't believe everything in America is based on whites. I don't believe there is such a thing as white privilege, either. I think it's the same as playing the race card...I have no unnameable advantage due to my race, and to think so would be racist, IMO. If this was so, why do blacks ever hold superior positions to whites? I have had black bosses, why are they MY boss when I'm white and they are never hired into positions of superiority? The argument that blacks have no privilege just doesn't make sense.
White privilege doesn't make it impossible for blacks to reach higher positions. It just means people of color have to work ten times harder for it. They have to be the best at everything to get to the same place a white person gets to being average.
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Yes, I inwardly acknowledge race, but I don't consciously say "Okay, this guy is black so that means x, y and z so I'm going to treat him like crap." No, it doesn't work that way. I don't even subconsciously treat black people like crap, much less think to myself that I will purposely do so. I have black employees and I'm sure I would've heard about it by now if they thought I was racist. My point is, I may be able to see that a person is black but whether or not that has any bearing on my thoughts or actions is another story.
Being a psych major and all, don't you know that the very nature of subconscious (or if you prefer, unconscious) thoughts is that you're not aware of them? I'm not trying to say you are racist, but if you were racist on the subconscious level, you wouldn't be aware of it, and your employees might not necessarily mention if you're racist because you're giving them their paychecks.
If when you say "racist" you have the conscious racist in mind, then I can understand why you don't think racism is widespread. Overt racism is much rarer than it used to be. Covert racism, however, is still very much widespread.
Okay that's fine. I'm just saying there are white people who feel guilty for benefiting from white privilege.
In that instance, two guys were accused of sexually harassing me when in reality we were just having a conversation. But someone else saw us chatting and assumed the worst case scenario about them. There were several factors at play, but race was definitely one of them. They were two black sighted men and I was one blind white woman. Compound race, gender, and disability, and the effects of any one of them alone become more exaggerated. But when you see several factors at play, you also realize how much each factor adds to someone's assumptions or thought processes.
My grandmother makes a point to dress well and people assume she's my caretaker. Every time I'm with a black person, regardless of how they dress or behave, people assume they're working for me. And every time I'm with a white person, people assume I'm in some sort of relationship with them. I think it's pretty safe to assume that it just might be somewhat related to race. It's not a one-time thing. It happens to me every day.
In my roommate's case race doesn't have to do with it cause we're the same race. But I'm pointing out how an assumption like "you're in a relationship" turns into "you're working for her" when you add race to the mix. I realize that "that black woman and deafblind white woman are lesbians married to each other" probably isn't the first thing that comes to mind for most people, especially in the Bible Belt where people don't even consider homosexuality an option most of the time, but there is something to be said for the fact that people always assume a black person is my subordinate and a white person is my equal.
It's not about caring what people think, because honestly I don't. The whole point is that is the very fabric of racism today. Most of racism today pops up in the assumptions people make and the way they think. That's why I keep on talking about assumptions and thought processes--because that is where you're most likely to find racism these days, flying right below the radar, or riding some wave. Not strong enough to be written into law anymore but still strong enough to be written into unspoken social rules. Not strong enough to be used as a reason on its own most of the time, but just strong enough to be one of the reasons behind "sorry, we already found the ideal candidate for the job" (when they haven't).
Racism is in this place right now where it's easy to see but hard to pinpoint and nearly impossible to call people on cause it's almost always couched in some other reasoning like "well maybe it's because of how they were behaving" or "maybe it's because of how they were dressed." That's what's making it so hard for people to progress further right now, because it's just subtle enough in most instances the ones being racist aren't even aware of it and the targets of racism can't call them out on it without being dismissed as playing "the race card."
So how do we move forward? If we want to move forward, everyone has to be willing to admit when they're racist. Everyone has to be willing to examine themselves and catch themselves when they're having a racist thought--and notice how I say "everyone"--not just white people. Everyone has to be willing to admit they were racist, and everyone has to be willing to create an environment where we can feel safe enough to admit when we're racist, so that we don't deny it for fear of being attacked.
Hey, you and I agree on something.
Why would I attribute my faults to my deaf-blindness when they have nothing to do with it? My faults are a result of my personality. Everyone has weaknesses--it's part of being human. That said, if someone discriminates against me for being deaf-blind and then accuses me of playing the deaf-blind card when I call them out them on it, there's no question I'll be annoyed. It's denigrating to have my opinion dismissed and to not be trusted enough to know when I'm being discriminated against. I know when I'm being discriminated against because I'm the one walking in deaf-blind shoes.
To bring the discussion back to original topic, don't you think of all people, black people would know the best when they're being discriminated against based on their race? They are the ones living in the skin they live in; they are always seeing racism in action because they are the target of it. (Note: I realize other races are targeted too but since this discussion is mainly about white on black racism and the history behind it, I'm focusing on that for now.) White people have the choice to open their eyes to it or remain blind to it but people of color don't have that choice because it's directed at them. Don't you think they just might have a bit more insight into how racism plays out?
Damn, what a bloody good read that was and by far made a lot of sense, very deserving of an honest admiration. Im in Awe!!
Exactly. That's my entire point. And, you have my apologies as I thought you were male.
Not really. I could say that I'm discriminated against due to being a woman anytime I am turned down for a job, etc. but that probably couldn't be further from the truth. It's all a little paranoid, if you ask me. These people have been conditioned by their parents and grandparents to assume whites are racist toward them. I'm not saying it's necessarily their fault, but in a way, it is, b/c they are free to change it. To use your words, they can open their eyes.
I'm heading to bed but I'll try to remember to respond to the rest of your post tomorrow.
I think your point about being conditioned to see racism has a lot of validity to it. I see this a lot in the Deaf community too. Culturally Deaf people are much more apt to feel persecuted than deaf people who grew up in a hearing culture because Culturally Deaf people have been surrounded by other people who spent their whole lives feeling discriminated against by the hearing and so on and so forth. So in a lot of ways there is a psychosocial pattern there. When a group is discriminated against for generation after generation, they do become more sensitized to it. But that doesn't mean their perspective has no validity to it either. While black people may have become more sensitive to racism because of the long history of slavery and racial segregation in this country, it still remains a fact that racism IS widespread in this country. Ask any black person who has been raised by white parents or parents of race that doesn't carry those emotional scars.
Some black individuals will yell "racism!" at any given opportunity (trust me I know cause I've met some of these people) but that's not the case for all blacks. Different individuals inherit this cultural "memory" to different degrees. Some black people are also completely tired of that mentality and don't like to think about race at all. Most black people fall somewhere in between those two extremes. But in any case, no matter how sensitive someone is to racism, it's important to remember that their experience and their feelings are just as valid as yours or mine.
Last edited by nimchimpsky; 01-16-2011 at 11:05 PM..
Anyway, I hear a lot of speculation, saying such and such was denied a job due to race, etc. but I have yet to see one person say it happened to HIM.
I'm here to tell you that it has happened to me twice in my 25 years in IT. Long story short, I passed two oral interviews over the phone, was flown down to Mississippi to the Coporate Headquarters at their expense to meet with the IT Director and the CIO. When I showed up at headquarters, suddenly the job was no longer available and that there had been some kind of "misunderstanding". There was no misunderstanding. I understood perfectly well what was going on. There was no problem until they got a look at me. Guess I sounded white over the phone.
I have had black bosses, why are they MY boss when I'm white and they are never hired into positions of superiority? The argument that blacks have no privilege just doesn't make sense.
You don't understand White Privilege. I have posted about white privilege in another thread. Here are a couple of short video clips that clearly demonstrate this. The third link is the best example of this:
No one is arguing that a white person cannot have a black boss. That's not what White Privilege is. I don't know what you mean by "black have privilege". Is that a reference to Affirmative Action?
Below are some questions you might ask yourself if you're trying to figure out if White Privilege exists for you. The items in blue are issues that I have dealt with personally or professionally in the last 24 months. For me, the answers to these questions is "No", or "That is not true for me". I am by no means an anomaly:
White Privilege: Unpacking the Invisible Knapsack by Peggy McIntosh
1. I can if I wish arrange to be in the company of people of my race most of the time.
2. I can avoid spending time with people whom I was trained to mistrust and who have learned to mistrust my kind or me.
3. If I should need to move, I can be pretty sure of renting or purchasing housing in an area which I can afford and in which I would want to live.
4. I can be pretty sure that my neighbors in such a location will be neutral or pleasant to me.
5. I can go shopping alone most of the time, pretty well assured that I will not be followed or harassed.
6. I can turn on the television or open to the front page of the paper and see people of my race widely represented.
7. When I am told about our national heritage or about "civilization," I am shown that people of my color made it what it is.
8. I can be sure that my children will be given curricular materials that testify to the existence of their race.
9. If I want to, I can be pretty sure of finding a publisher for this piece on white privilege.
10. I can be pretty sure of having my voice heard in a group in which I am the only member of my race.
11. I can be casual about whether or not to listen to another person's voice in a group in which s/he is the only member of his/her race.
12. I can go into a music shop and count on finding the music of my race represented, into a supermarket and find the staple foods which fit with my cultural traditions, into a hairdresser's shop and find someone who can cut my hair.
13. Whether I use checks, credit cards or cash, I can count on my skin color not to work against the appearance of financial reliability.
14. I can arrange to protect my children most of the time from people who might not like them.
15. I do not have to educate my children to be aware of systemic racism for their own daily physical protection.
16. I can be pretty sure that my children's teachers and employers will tolerate them if they fit school and workplace norms; my chief worries about them do not concern others' attitudes toward their race.
17. I can talk with my mouth full and not have people put this down to my color.
18. I can swear, or dress in second hand clothes, or not answer letters, without having people attribute these choices to the bad morals, the poverty or the illiteracy of my race.
19. I can speak in public to a powerful male group without putting my race on trial.
20. I can do well in a challenging situation without being called a credit to my race.
21. I am never asked to speak for all the people of my racial group.
22. I can remain oblivious of the language and customs of persons of color who constitute the world's majority without feeling in my culture any penalty for such oblivion.
23. I can criticize our government and talk about how much I fear its policies and behavior without being seen as a cultural outsider.
24. I can be pretty sure that if I ask to talk to the "person in charge", I will be facing a person of my race.
25. If a traffic cop pulls me over or if the IRS audits my tax return, I can be sure I haven't been singled out because of my race.
26. I can easily buy posters, post-cards, picture books, greeting cards, dolls, toys and children's magazines featuring people of my race.
27. I can go home from most meetings of organizations I belong to feeling somewhat tied in, rather than isolated, out-of-place, outnumbered, unheard, held at a distance or feared.
28. I can be pretty sure that an argument with a colleague of another race is more likely to jeopardize her/his chances for advancement than to jeopardize mine.
29. I can be pretty sure that if I argue for the promotion of a person of another race, or a program centering on race, this is not likely to cost me heavily within my present setting, even if my colleagues disagree with me.
30. If I declare there is a racial issue at hand, or there isn't a racial issue at hand, my race will lend me more credibility for either position than a person of color will have.
31. I can choose to ignore developments in minority writing and minority activist programs, or disparage them, or learn from them, but in any case, I can find ways to be more or less protected from negative consequences of any of these choices.
32. My culture gives me little fear about ignoring the perspectives and powers of people of other races.
33. I am not made acutely aware that my shape, bearing or body odor will be taken as a reflection on my race.
34. I can worry about racism without being seen as self-interested or self-seeking.
35. I can take a job with an affirmative action employer without having my co-workers on the job suspect that I got it because of my race.
36. If my day, week or year is going badly, I need not ask of each negative episode or situation whether it had racial overtones.
37. I can be pretty sure of finding people who would be willing to talk with me and advise me about my next steps, professionally.
38. I can think over many options, social, political, imaginative or professional, without asking whether a person of my race would be accepted or allowed to do what I want to do.
39. I can be late to a meeting without having the lateness reflect on my race.
40. I can choose public accommodation without fearing that people of my race cannot get in or will be mistreated in the places I have chosen.
41. I can be sure that if I need legal or medical help, my race will not work against me.
42. I can arrange my activities so that I will never have to experience feelings of rejection owing to my race.
43. If I have low credibility as a leader I can be sure that my race is not the problem.
44. I can easily find academic courses and institutions which give attention only to people of my race.
45. I can expect figurative language and imagery in all of the arts to testify to experiences of my race.
46. I can chose blemish cover or bandages in "flesh" color and have them more or less match my skin.
47. I can travel alone or with my spouse without expecting embarrassment or hostility in those who deal with us.
48. I have no difficulty finding neighborhoods where people approve of our household.
49. My children are given texts and classes which implicitly support our kind of family unit and do not turn them against my choice of domestic partnership.
50. I will feel welcomed and "normal" in the usual walks of public life, institutional and social.
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Originally Posted by andrea3821
I have black employees and I'm sure I would've heard about it by now if they thought I was racist. My point is, I may be able to see that a person is black but whether or not that has any bearing on my thoughts or actions is another story.
How can you be so sure about not hearing it from your employees? I don't know them and I don't know what the dynamic is between you and your employees, but I can guarantee you that given that this is an employer / employee relationship, they don't as free as you might believe, to tell you whether they think you're racist. They may not feel that you are racist, but they may feel that you don't treat them as equals with the rest of your staff. The latter is conjecture on my part, as I am not a part of that situation. I will venture to say, however, that if they are over the age of 30, they have come to understand, at least to some degree, both a black and a white paradigm when looking at workplace interaction.
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