Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
What do you mean there's no other framework available? I don't get that at all. There's a legal framework, isn't there?
Sure, but the legal framework is a product of the culture, which is a product of religion (or a lack thereof). Laws reflect what people believe about life: they don't create belief out of whole cloth.
As mentioned earlier in this thread, love properly understood is the very foundation of marriage. But LUV, sex, romance, and warm fuzzies are shaky and ephemeral foundations indeed..
Agreed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by WesternPilgrim
TMI..
I was trying to point out that it's possible to go too far the other way and de-emphasize attraction too much. Sorry you didn't see my point.
Quote:
Originally Posted by WesternPilgrim
Absolutely true. I'm in favor of arranged marriages, whereby parents guide and counsel their children, but not in the Mohammedan sense of ignoring the consent of the spouses..
Yes, I'm with that, as long as parents respect the wants/needs of their gay children as well. Unfortunately, that typically never happens in an arranged or quasi-arranged marriage culture...but it theoretically could (and should).
Wow, that's a fantastic quote. And I'll tell you the reason behind this: disastrously low birthrates in the West and the corresponding demise of extended families.[/quote]
I see your point to an extent. But I'm not sure if that last statement is true. I think a committment to the truth, from a secularist standpoint, could, at least theoretically lead to the same or better results as a religious context.
This is a good subject to explore. Does a secularist believe in metaphysical truth? Because that's what drives belief in marriage for the bulk of humanity: a belief in moral and spiritual realities. So I'm wondering what kind of non-religious truth would motivate a couple to persevere through a difficult marriage.
From what source does a secularist derive his morality? What makes it binding on his conscience?
As mentioned earlier in this thread, love properly understood is the very foundation of marriage. But LUV, sex, romance, and warm fuzzies are shaky and ephemeral foundations indeed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by WesternPilgrim
TMI..
I'm not trying to be in-your-face about being gay...just pointing out that I do think it's possible to go too far the other way by de-emphasizing attraction too much. If you'd met as many gay men who got married and subsequently divorced as I have, you'd better understand where I'm coming from.
Quote:
Originally Posted by WesternPilgrim
Absolutely true. I'm in favor of arranged marriages, whereby parents guide and counsel their children, but not in the Mohammedan sense of ignoring the consent of the spouses...
Exactly. Arranged or quasi-arranged marriage is ok, as long as the needs of gay/lesbian children are respected. That's a major caveat since traditional arranged marriage cultures typically wouldn't recognize this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by WesternPilgrim
Wow, that's a fantastic quote. And I'll tell you the reason behind this: disastrously low birthrates in the West and the corresponding demise of extended families.
I do think low birthrates can lead to unrealistic expectations, but I'm not sure if this is cause or effect.
The demise of the extended family (and for that matter, community), however, I can agree with wholeheartedly. My sister lived in Brazil for 6 months and she pointed out that people there have much more realistic expectations in marriage partners because the marital relationship isn't the be all and end all precisely because they are much better networked with other family and friends. So if the relationship with the spouse isn't the best ever, it's not as big of a deal. Americans are too socially isolated for their own good, unfortunately, (and I include myself in that category ).
Yes, I'm with that, as long as parents respect the wants/needs of their gay children as well. Unfortunately, that typically never happens in an arranged or quasi-arranged marriage culture...but it theoretically could (and should).
We're making such good progress in this conversation that I'd rather avoid the topic of homosexuality. Suffice it to say that I don't agree with it. But it looks like we have some common ground otherwise, and I appreciate your thoughtfulness on the subject of marriage in general.
This is a good subject to explore. Does a secularist believe in metaphysical truth? Because that's what drives belief in marriage for the bulk of humanity: a belief in moral and spiritual realities. So I'm wondering what kind of non-religious truth would motivate a couple to persevere through a difficult marriage.
From what source does a secularist derive his morality? What makes it binding on his conscience?
Good questions. I am not a pure secularist and I am tired right now, so I can't contemplate them.
I will say, however, that I'm not so sure that metaphysical truth drives belief in marriage. I tend to think it's more practical earthly considerations (although maybe I'm wrong...and not that metaphysics isnj't practical....but it's not perceived as practical and/or is misunderstood by the majority of humanity, IMO).
Good questions. I am not a pure secularist and I am tired right now, so I can't contemplate them.
I will say, however, that I'm not so sure that metaphysical truth drives belief in marriage. I tend to think it's more practical earthly considerations (although maybe I'm wrong...and not that metaphysics isnj't practical....but it's not perceived as practical and/or is misunderstood by the majority of humanity, IMO).
We can pick this up another day, hopefully.
Looking at practical, earthly considerations for marriage - financial/economic security, social status, mutual support, etc. - I can see these as motivating a marriage in the beginning but not through the long haul. Today, for example, women no longer need marriage for financial security and so they divorce their husbands in record numbers. Marriage is no longer a status indicator, and no one's social status will suffer as the result of a divorce, so why hang in there through hard times? For marriage to survive in modern society it seems to me that the religious element is more necessary than ever.
Anyway, go get some rest. I've enjoyed the exchange.
I do think low birthrates can lead to unrealistic expectations, but I'm not sure if this is cause or effect.
The demise of the extended family (and for that matter, community), however, I can agree with wholeheartedly. My sister lived in Brazil for 6 months and she pointed out that people there have much more realistic expectations in marriage partners because the marital relationship isn't the be all and end all precisely because they are much better networked with other family and friends. So if the relationship with the spouse isn't the best ever, it's not as big of a deal. Americans are too socially isolated for their own good, unfortunately, (and I include myself in that category ).
Yes, yes, that's it precisely. Few people can see this nowadays without experiencing a more traditional society like your sister did in Brazil.
What I meant to say is that low birthrates in the West are directly responsible for the demise of the extended family (and therefore community) in the West. Fewer children means fewer cousins, fewer aunts and uncles, fewer nieces and nephews, fewer in-laws, and so forth. (This phenomenon also underlies the rise of the nanny state, but I digress ...)
As you have pointed out, the social pressure on marital relationships in the absence of extended family and a stable community is enormous, and I think too much to bear without divine help.
It usually IS the male's fault, addiction to drugs/alcohol, adultery, physical/mental abuse, financial destruction, etc..?
Please, lady, do a little research before you start spouting off ignorantly. Very few divorces are for any of the reasons you mention. Most are for vague notions of "irreconcilable differences", "incompatibility", general unhappiness, or what have you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trackwatch
So it is "better" for children to grow up in a violent, drug/alcohol addicted household financial disaster than a divorced mother?
This is a false dilemma. A woman who lives with a husband who is violent, alcoholic, addicted to drugs, etc., may have ample reason to get out from under the same roof. Perhaps even a duty to get out. No problem there. This isn't a perfect world. But if she's married, she's married, and divorce ought never be an option.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trackwatch
What does your wife think about your attitude about marriage and divorce?
She agrees with it. After putting up with me through 20 years and 6 children (thus far), I'd say she's walked the walk.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
).
