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The problem here is that you can outsource and IT job to keep the salary artificially low. You can't outsource a meter maid's job. I know this is a public sector vs. private sector thing but hey, as long as CEOs make their hundreds of millions by outsourcing and cutting labor force to "increase profit" its all good I guess. I hope you guys do know that 75% of the jobs in the US can be done with the by a high school education. Sh*t. I think it is sad that others are complaining about people working for a living. They provide a service. No tell me how the private sector handles that? They tow your sh*t. People that tow make good money too.
The problem here is that you can outsource and IT job to keep the salary artificially low. You can't outsource a meter maid's job. I know this is a public sector vs. private sector thing but hey, as long as CEOs make their hundreds of millions by outsourcing and cutting labor force to "increase profit" its all good I guess. I hope you guys do know that 75% of the jobs in the US can be done with the by a high school education. Sh*t. I think it is sad that others are complaining about people working for a living. They provide a service. No tell me how the private sector handles that? They tow your sh*t. People that tow make good money too.
I am not talking about IT customer service jobs. Most of the high level networking jobs are not outsourced to low paying countries. The reason outsourcing is so popular when it comes to IT CS jobs is that you can take a low level of required knowledge, give them a procedure manual and tell them to read off the steps. Anyone can do that, it doesn't take that much knowledge and ability (as you can tell if you have ever dealt with CS reps in the first stages of a call). After that, if your issue is far more technical (you are an engineer calling senior specialist/product engineers, or a business that doesn't have an in-house technical team to handle the complicated network engineering), you don't deal with the low pay outsourcing that you seem to be referring to.
As for the meter maid, people line up for government jobs because they know they over pay and have ridiculous health/pension plans. There is no shortage of someone applying for those jobs and there is a TON of competition for them. They get paid a lot because they don't have to compete, they are not constrained to the competition of the market and if they go into the hole paying them too much, they simply raise taxes, cut other government programs to pay for it. There is no responsibility here.
If you pay those jobs like you do other jobs of equal requirements, people will still apply for them. There is nothing special about meter maids that requires such ridiculous pay.
What people are complaining about is how much effort, knowledge and ability many careers take that are being paid less than these ridiculous hand me out government jobs. It is an insult to the market and to those who have to put a hell ot a lot more effort to make their money. As for the people towing, they are PRIVATE businesses and they take all the risks associated with such.
Tell you what, lets take all government jobs and make private, forcing them to compete and be responsible for their business. Then we will see how many meter maids are being paid such ridiculous salaries and how long that business stays open by doing such. Oh, and no government handouts either. You overspend, pay your employee's too much, and throw away money through poor business... you fold and some other private company walks in and takes you over.
Lets see how that works out when these "government jobs" have to actually EARN their damn pay.
I have no problem with people making as much money as they can in the "private market". This is why I don't think anything of entertainers making millions of dollars a year as they are able to appeal to the market and profit off it.
A meter maid is a public employee and their position takes no education, talent, discipline, or extensive training or knowledge to do. Compare them to those out there that make less or within the same range which do take a lot of training, education, etc... to do and you see the problem.
For instance, a network engineer's salary averages around 81k a year in southern California. To be a network engineer, you need to have a degree in Computer Science (or network engineering related major) and often certifications in Cisco, Juniper and many other product focuses. Those jobs also usually require 5+ years experience to obtain that level of salary. Now you can do it without a degree, but you will need to have either worked in the industry for many years (being able to demonstrate your expertise and knowledge) or have extensive certifications to which take an extreme amount of effort to obtain (CCNP, CCVP, CCSP etc... or the CCIE's) AND demonstrate your expertise and knowledge. That isn't even getting into the call support jobs at the CCNA level that require a lot of technical experience in routing and switching and yet often only pull in 35-45k a year.
So, explain to me how a meter maid getting paid a 100k a year is an appropriate salary when their required skill sets are nowhere near the level of the network engineer AND they are a public job that doesn't have to compete in the industry?
That is the problem. We are paying menial labor jobs more or often equal to that of the more technical or demanding jobs out there. What do you think will happen if that trend continues? hint: people will stop trying to excel in the more difficult disciplines and seek to be employed in the less required jobs that pay lotto earnings for being able to know how to read and write.
If anything, this shows how out of touch government is.
While I agree with your premise, I find your example flawed. Most CCNA's I know make in the 80k a year range, most CCNP's I know make into the 6 figures, and most CCIE's I know (myself included) make *well* into the 6 igures.
But you're right - let's compare a CCNP to a meter maid. A CCNP has to have years in the field, has to have advanced technical knowledge, has to pass a number of exams on a continuing basis, is CONTINUALLY having to learn and keep abreast to changes in technology, best practices, security concerns, etc. And if a CCNP fails at his job, it means hundreds of thousands of dollars/millions in lost revenue for a company at best, hundreds of thousands of people having their identities stolen at worst. It's an incredibly important job. You don't get to fail. Ever. The stress levels are immense. Not to mention that the network engineer usually has to participate in an on-call schedule that oftentimes results in just as many man-hours put in as a doctor - and requires almost as much knowledge.
Meanwhile, a meter maid....doesn't really matter, in the grand scheme of things. There are no wide-reaching implications if the meter maid doesn't do their job right. The wheels don't fall off. If they miss a car, no big deal. There's no continuing education required. There's no barrier of entry to get in. So why should a meter maid make anywhere near what a CCNP makes?
The problem here is that you can outsource and IT job to keep the salary artificially low. You can't outsource a meter maid's job. I know this is a public sector vs. private sector thing but hey, as long as CEOs make their hundreds of millions by outsourcing and cutting labor force to "increase profit" its all good I guess. I hope you guys do know that 75% of the jobs in the US can be done with the by a high school education. Sh*t. I think it is sad that others are complaining about people working for a living. They provide a service. No tell me how the private sector handles that? They tow your sh*t. People that tow make good money too.
Outsource your network security engineer and see how fast your company ends up paying millions in data breach fees. You can outsource a lot in the IT world - operations is not one of them. NOBODY outsources their network and systems people. Companies tried it about 10 years ago, and the results were so disastrous that nobody dares do it again.
While I agree with your premise, I find your example flawed. Most CCNA's I know make in the 80k a year range, most CCNP's I know make into the 6 figures, and most CCIE's I know (myself included) make *well* into the 6 igures.
Yes, but most of those require a good amount of experience before you hit that level. Then there is also the issue that there are a lot of CCNA's out there (with a crap load of years of experience) that in many cases are already operating at CCNP/CCIE levels of technicality and responsibility, but never bothered with getting the higher certs.
The 35-45k jobs I am talking about are more of the lower tier CCNA tech support jobs that really aren't doing engineering tasks as much as they are gathering info, doing basic trouble shooting and passing it on to an upper tier as needed.
I am not talking about IT customer service jobs. Most of the high level networking jobs are not outsourced to low paying countries. The reason outsourcing is so popular when it comes to IT CS jobs is that you can take a low level of required knowledge, give them a procedure manual and tell them to read off the steps. Anyone can do that, it doesn't take that much knowledge and ability (as you can tell if you have ever dealt with CS reps in the first stages of a call). After that, if your issue is far more technical (you are an engineer calling senior specialist/product engineers, or a business that doesn't have an in-house technical team to handle the complicated network engineering), you don't deal with the low pay outsourcing that you seem to be referring to.
As for the meter maid, people line up for government jobs because they know they over pay and have ridiculous health/pension plans. There is no shortage of someone applying for those jobs and there is a TON of competition for them. They get paid a lot because they don't have to compete, they are not constrained to the competition of the market and if they go into the hole paying them too much, they simply raise taxes, cut other government programs to pay for it. There is no responsibility here.
If you pay those jobs like you do other jobs of equal requirements, people will still apply for them. There is nothing special about meter maids that requires such ridiculous pay.
What people are complaining about is how much effort, knowledge and ability many careers take that are being paid less than these ridiculous hand me out government jobs. It is an insult to the market and to those who have to put a hell ot a lot more effort to make their money. As for the people towing, they are PRIVATE businesses and they take all the risks associated with such.
Tell you what, lets take all government jobs and make private, forcing them to compete and be responsible for their business. Then we will see how many meter maids are being paid such ridiculous salaries and how long that business stays open by doing such. Oh, and no government handouts either. You overspend, pay your employee's too much, and throw away money through poor business... you fold and some other private company walks in and takes you over.
Lets see how that works out when these "government jobs" have to actually EARN their damn pay.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xanathos
Outsource your network security engineer and see how fast your company ends up paying millions in data breach fees. You can outsource a lot in the IT world - operations is not one of them. NOBODY outsources their network and systems people. Companies tried it about 10 years ago, and the results were so disastrous that nobody dares do it again.
I should have been clearer about IT. I wasn't talking about customer service. I was referring to the upper echelons of IT where they do outsource and insource (should have mentioned that) to keep salaries artificially low. Of course you are going to have your specialist (the people that fix these problems caused by lower quality developers flooding the industry, ie me) and what not. Still, if you privatize everything, it will all go to sh*t soon enough. The problem is there needs to be a balance. Also, you need to figure out how and why the middle class rose. People were getting paid decently for their work is what it boils down to. Now I know you two hate public workers and think that they are completely useless but what do you think they should get paid? $10 an hour? Do you think they should get benefits? Or should that only be reserved to highly specialized individuals? Hell some people think that Walmart employees make too much and should be happy they are even working.
They could make changes to reform the system, the same way GM did when they brought back jobs.
Restructure the pay and benefits for new hires. Lower starting salary, raises limited to CPI, defined contribution pension and/or 401K. This is what the corporates did starting back in the mid 90's.
I should have been clearer about IT. I wasn't talking about customer service. I was referring to the upper echelons of IT where they do outsource and insource (should have mentioned that) to keep salaries artificially low. Of course you are going to have your specialist (the people that fix these problems caused by lower quality developers flooding the industry, ie me) and what not. Still, if you privatize everything, it will all go to sh*t soon enough. The problem is there needs to be a balance. Also, you need to figure out how and why the middle class rose. People were getting paid decently for their work is what it boils down to. Now I know you two hate public workers and think that they are completely useless but what do you think they should get paid? $10 an hour? Do you think they should get benefits? Or should that only be reserved to highly specialized individuals? Hell some people think that Walmart employees make too much and should be happy they are even working.
Why is that? Explain why privatization is bad? Show how government is better in comparison. Use some real examples if you can please.
I don't hate public workers, I despise government waste which results in abusive salaries of government workers. Remember, I have no complaints concerning private companies and their practices as I can choose to pay them or not (ie not do business with them due to their practice), an option that is not afforded to me with public funded positions.
The thing about private industry is that the market regulates the salary. Salaries may go up and down based on supply/demand in both the employee services offered as well as the products a given company provides.
Government unfortunately does not have to go through the process of finding the appropriate pay rate. They simply make it up based on ideological grounds of the political opinion of those who set the rate. It would be nice if government could bring itself down to the level of the rest of us, or better yet, it would be better if government stepped out of the picture other than that of a protective nature of oversight.
Lets see how that works out when these "government jobs" have to actually EARN their damn pay.
We don't earn our money? News to me!! Given that I just got home from a LONG day of hard work, and can barely keep my eyes open (too early for bed), I'd say you are talking nonsense.
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