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America is not, nor has it ever been, a static culture. It has changed constantly over time. The agrarian culture of the early settlers would find the culture of the industrial revolution to be completely alien. Likewise the post and pre civil war culture would not recognize the post WW II culture. I agree that immigrants who come here should have to conform in many ways to American mainstream culture in order to be successful, and traditionally that usually occurs in the first or second generations born here. And I do agree, they need to abide by the laws established here, or else they should leave. But its also true that immigrant cultures can and do effect that American mainstream culture over time. We see it in the foods we eat, the music we listen to, the entertainment we watch. I for one would not want to live in a cultural bubble that is completely isolated from other cultures, I think each culture has worthy aspects that we can at least appreciate, if not learn from.
Some might call this a "civic's lesson" in the course of a back-handed compliment, but either way, I think it is a good reminder that we should maybe tone down all this call for assimilation. I don't even really agree with this statement, "that immigrants who come here should have to conform in many ways to American mainstream culture in order to be successful."
Why the need to "conform" other than as the law requires? Of course we should all be law-abiding, regardless of culture. How many great examples can we come up with of people who have not necessarily conformed and/or assimilated yet gone on to become successful?
Who has really become very successful by conforming?
I thought Americans took pride in breaking the molds of conformity...
Some might call this a "civic's lesson" in the course of a back-handed compliment, but either way, I think it is a good reminder that we should maybe tone down all this call for assimilation. I don't even really agree with this statement, "that immigrants who come here should have to conform in many ways to American mainstream culture in order to be successful."
Why the need to "conform" other than as the law requires? Of course we should all be law-abiding, regardless of culture. How many great examples can we come up with of people who have not necessarily conformed and/or assimilated yet gone on to become successful?
Who has really become very successful by conforming?
I thought Americans took pride in breaking the molds of conformity...
Consider this - who gets to define what is "mainstream American Culture?" So called mainstream American culture isn't static, it evolves and changes over time with the people as the demographics evolve.
Immigrants do assimilate into American culture, but they also add to it and change it over time. You can say that over time, people assimilate and adapt to America but they also influence the culture. It's a two-way street.
Just because Americans enjoy different cultural foods does not mean we don't have a mainstream identifying culture and language of our own. Who's suggesting that we isolated ourselves from other cultures? It is just that we don't want them to replace our culture with theirs and that's the point here.
"It is just that we don't want them to replace our culture with theirs and that's the point here."
Culture is about far more than just food, or clothes or language. Culture is not a matter of law or imposed by law in the United States (though some religious types don't get this either). We all live according to the culture we choose, eat the food we like, wear our favorite clothes, speak the language(s) we prefer to speak..., whether from another country or from down on the farm in middle America.
Ironic, don't you think, that many people you might call fundamentalists or nationalists or extremists (or fascists) in other countries have been very critical of the "westernization" of their culture, in particular as exported from America. I think we relish the thought. But boy when it comes to the other way around, we want assimilation to "our culture!"
Islam is a completely different civilization. It is a political religion with aspirations of world domination. Ever since its beginnings. And people have a right to be wary of it. People who do not know history are doomed to repeat it.
Because you know what? Islam has been f****** with Europe and "the West" for 1400 years. For all the groaning about the Crusades, people forget that Islam's designs on Europe are nothing new. As a political system it has colonized Europe multiple times throughout history. It has controlled swaths of southern Europe. It has invaded multiple times. It has extracted sex slaves and resources and tribute from Europe for centuries.
There's a reason why the eastern Europeans are the most adamant against this. They've borne the brunt of Islamic aggression. THEY know what its' like to have to provide thousands of young boys as tribute to the Ottomans, and to be made Dhimmis in their own land.
And yet western Europe is full of spineless cuckolds... watching what they've built and their cultural legacies get co-opted by outsiders from diametrically opposed civilizations with conflicting values...whilst furiously masturbating in the corner over multiculturalism without actually thinking through the potential consequences to their way of life. It'd be one thing if assimilation was actually occurring. But no, what you get instead (as opposed to your "Irish, Italian, etc." examples) are people DEMANDING accommodation for their way of life, and for their host societies to adapt to THEM, not the other way around.
Want to know what happens when civilizations collide? Want to know the future of Europe? Look at Lebanon. It really, REALLY naive to believe that when the adherents to the sick philosophy/politics of Islam obtain a full majority that they're still going to embrace European style pluralistic "Fraternitie, Egalite et Liberte!"... there is literally no example that any braindead idiot leftist can can point to to show otherwise... basically anywhere in the world.
But go on. Be more concerned about being called "xenophobic" or "racist," than actually thinking something through to its logical conclusion. Hopefully you won't be around when it becomes a "cultural norm" to wear a Niqb in Amsterdam, or when your daughter sees hundreds of years of western feminism wiped away through the introduction of a backwards and regressive religion onto a continent that fought hundreds of years to break away the shackles of Christianity!
Would love you rep you but can't for another 24 hours. You said everything I wanted to say more eloquently. Thank-you.
America is not, nor has it ever been, a static culture. It has changed constantly over time. The agrarian culture of the early settlers would find the culture of the industrial revolution to be completely alien. Likewise the post and pre civil war culture would not recognize the post WW II culture. I agree that immigrants who come here should have to conform in many ways to American mainstream culture in order to be successful, and traditionally that usually occurs in the first or second generations born here. And I do agree, they need to abide by the laws established here, or else they should leave. But its also true that immigrant cultures can and do effect that American mainstream culture over time. We see it in the foods we eat, the music we listen to, the entertainment we watch. I for one would not want to live in a cultural bubble that is completely isolated from other cultures, I think each culture has worthy aspects that we can at least appreciate, if not learn from.
We'll be the judge of what's good and what's NOT good for the US. NOT a bunch of illegal aliens or even arrogant legal aliens. OTOH: many legal aliens HAVE brought better ways of doing things here; it's that they EARNED our respect 1st.
Islam is a completely different civilization. It is a political religion with aspirations of world domination. Ever since its beginnings. And people have a right to be wary of it. People who do not know history are doomed to repeat it.
Because you know what? Islam has been f****** with Europe and "the West" for 1400 years. For all the groaning about the Crusades, people forget that Islam's designs on Europe are nothing new. As a political system it has colonized Europe multiple times throughout history. It has controlled swaths of southern Europe. It has invaded multiple times. It has extracted sex slaves and resources and tribute from Europe for centuries.
There's a reason why the eastern Europeans are the most adamant against this. They've borne the brunt of Islamic aggression. THEY know what its' like to have to provide thousands of young boys as tribute to the Ottomans, and to be made Dhimmis in their own land.
And yet western Europe is full of spineless cuckolds... watching what they've built and their cultural legacies get co-opted by outsiders from diametrically opposed civilizations with conflicting values...whilst furiously masturbating in the corner over multiculturalism without actually thinking through the potential consequences to their way of life. It'd be one thing if assimilation was actually occurring. But no, what you get instead (as opposed to your "Irish, Italian, etc." examples) are people DEMANDING accommodation for their way of life, and for their host societies to adapt to THEM, not the other way around.
Want to know what happens when civilizations collide? Want to know the future of Europe? Look at Lebanon. It really, REALLY naive to believe that when the adherents to the sick philosophy/politics of Islam obtain a full majority that they're still going to embrace European style pluralistic "Fraternitie, Egalite et Liberte!"... there is literally no example that any braindead idiot leftist can can point to to show otherwise... basically anywhere in the world.
But go on. Be more concerned about being called "xenophobic" or "racist," than actually thinking something through to its logical conclusion. Hopefully you won't be around when it becomes a "cultural norm" to wear a Niqb in Amsterdam, or when your daughter sees hundreds of years of western feminism wiped away through the introduction of a backwards and regressive religion onto a continent that fought hundreds of years to break away the shackles of Christianity!
To be fair: the Europeans ARE starting to "grow a pair" if talking about putting Islamists in their place. Too; IF Europe was to "snap", if I were any kind of Muslim, I'd be thinking about leave and leaving fast.
To be fair: the Europeans ARE starting to "grow a pair" if talking about putting Islamists in their place. Too; IF Europe was to "snap", if I were any kind of Muslim, I'd be thinking about leave and leaving fast.
Christianity, 2.2 billion people, 31.5%
Islam 1.5 billion people, 22.32%
Other, 3.367 billion people, 47%
Where, exactly, is this place Islamists are to be put?
It's been pointed out many times here on CD that the wave of world socio/economic/political events is and always will be the result of natural upheavals that men erroneously think they can affect. Religion and it's power to hold sway over its adherents has been one aspect of those natural events. I'm using the term "natural" in order that people can hopefully understand religion as one of man's most natural inclinations, within the theo/confines of most fundamentalist religious views lies the fuel for the fires of extremism and hatred.
Tim Mcveigh and Terry Nichols considered themselves soldiers, fighting the gubmint infidels and in this view they found plenty of company right here in the good 'ol USA. Most of the Islamic extremists are on a par with all the other extreme groups killing under the banner of their God, personally I have little use for anybody with extreme views. The latter day theo-terrorists arising from every stripe of believer the world over hasn't given a positive spin on religion, any religion.
We've seen our own brand of American theo-terrorist in the form of anti abortion doctor killers, or the Utah brothers that were the subject of a book titled "Under The Banner of Heaven". Extremist Christians have as little concern for their brothers as do the misguided Islamic murderers in Syria.
Where ya gonna go when your whack-nut neighbor is trying to kill you? Wars, fought for whatever reason, cause the innocents to "vote with their feet", I've seen here on the forum a ton of advice that includes the line, "if you don't like it here, just move." Those fleeing the Islamic madness are the ones who most likely want to live in peace, otherwise they'd stay where the world has gone bloodbath crazy.
Of course many here will want to have you believe their intentions to exclude as simply being a concern for "our way of life," that our "way of life" has many definitions seems lost on the masses who don't even agree among themselves here on CD most of the time. A thorough reading of the history of modern man will surely reveal the fact that human migration has been the one constant, and we know that it will continue in spite of all that resists it.
Couching the mainstream Islamic adherents as a group related to the wahhabi conservative school of thought is disingenuous at best and only serves to deflect the truth of a serious split in the Islamic faith. Christians are obliged to live in harmony and peace with the rest of the world, as are the Islamic faithful, the failure on both sides just shows the natural tendency to hypocrisy, and no law or theology will change that.
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Thanks from me as well...
