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In other threads you have mentioned being a Christian and involved in your church, so your attitudes about children and child rearing puzzle me.
As I believe God himself gifted me with mine, I will not take credit for "breeding" or "indulging" myself, but you go right ahead and do that.
Regardless, as per usual, we will just have to agree to disagree.
Yes I'm Christian but we aren't living in old testiment times. Today, breeding is indulging yourself. We no longer have a need to go forth and multiply. The world is over crowded as it is. If you really want to do something noble, don't have kids. That would be really noble.
Whether you like it or not, you and I chose to add to the population problem of this world instead of doing the noble thing and abstaining. Now we owe society because we indulged our own selfish whims. We are not to be commended for breeding. We are not owed for breeding. We owe others because we chose to breed.
Yes, I consider my children a gift to me. One I, selfishly, took instead of doing the noble thing. IMO, those who chose not to have children are the noble ones. They denied themselves for the betterment of society. You and I did not.
Not even close. This is the 21st century. Women are allowed to have both families AND careers now.
We are not trapped in my grandmothers day when women didn't even control their own fertility and housework was a full time job. Please note that there never was a time in history when women stayed home for the kids until they took the work out of housework. Before that, women stayed home because they could not predict when the next baby would come and they had too much work to do to do anything else!!
Do you realize just how much work has been taken out of housework? My grandmother spent two to three whole days washing clothes on a washboard, wringing them, hanging them to dry and ironing everything because there was no permanent press. I toss a load in, during a commercial, transfer it to the dryer, during a commercial, bring up the basket, during a commercial, and fold while watching the end of one show. My total amount of actual work involved in laundry is measured in minutes while my grandmother took days!!!
Now add no wax floors, non stick cookware, dishwashers, refrigerator/freezers, supermarkets (my grandmother walked to market daily), canned goods you buy instead of canning what you grew in your own garden....etc, etc, etc... Reality is, they took the work out of housework long ago and left plenty of time for a career in the process. Today's full time working mom spends more time with her children than a 1950's stay at home mom did because we have so much less work to do at home. We've had about 60 hours a week freed up. Even if I use 40 of them to work and 10 to commute, I'm still 10 hours a week ahead of the game.
I recognize that there is no need to stay home anymore. Staying home never was about the children. It was about getting the work done. We don't need to stay home to do that anymore. Now I can benefit my family by working. I'm not needed at home to do chores, like women were in the past so now I can contribute in other ways IN ADDITION TO taking care of my children. Putting them first doesn't mean I have to be with them every minute of every day. It means I make sure they're taken care of and supported.
As I said, stay at home moms and working moms do the same things. Stay at home moms just take longer to do it. There is no need to stay home anymore. That need went away when they took the work out of housework and invented birth control.
Yes, I think earning an income is important. So does your husband I'd guess.
I didn't say women couldn't have careers.
I simply said I think it's sad that you put yours first, above your family and your kids. Don't say you don't, you've hardly mentioned them at all while you're consistently telling others that being a parent is secondary to a career and having an income. Your words make it quite clear that your first priority is yourself and your career.
So I feel bad for you, and I feel even worse for your kids.
I know she does, which makes it even more sad. She has repeatedly stated that a career is more important than family, that it should come first. She makes her priorities more and more clear the more she posts, that money is her #1. I feel bad for her and her family.
No, she said
Quote:
I find motherhood enriching and home a place of comfort. I work to support my children and our lifestyle but there's nothing noble about motherhood, homemaking or working for a living unless you're actually doing something noble while you do them.
What about the fact that working parents also have the responsibility to raise kids well? And that they do? Is that also "noble" in your worldview?
Personally, I don't view raising my children well as noble. I don't view it as something I deserve a pat on the back for. I consider it an obligation I have to society. Society didn't need me to have kids. I chose to have them and I owe it to society to raise them well so I give society good citizens. This is not noble. It's a responsibility I took on when I had kids. Because I chose to have kids, I owe a debt to society. I owe society for everything I take from it because I had kids. I owe it to society to raise them to be good citizens.
Taking the bolded statements it would show that she understand the responsibility to raise children. To raise them to be good citizens. Gee you think that nurture plays a role in it?
Does it sound like her children were deprived of shelter, nurture, and love? No it doesn't
Then why is he paying after the marriage ends? I'd call that a punishment.
You're ignoring that he's already done his part in supporting her during the marriage. He should not have to continue to pay after the marriage ends. He IS being punished. She IS being rewarded.
You're right, this is a joint decisiond DURING A MARRIAGE. Not AFTER the divorce. It's agreed upon DURING the marriage. Why is payment continuing after the divorce? Other than to punish him for supporting his family...
I don't think men who choose to support their families should be punished for having done so any more than I think women who support their families should be punished for having done so. If anything, the spouse who was supported should owe the spouse who did the supporting. He's already carried his weight plus hers for several years. He shouldn't be punished for that.
We'll have to agree to disagree. If a couple agrees that one will abandon their career to stay home, they do so knowing full well that the stay-at-home spouse will be seriously diluting any future earnings. If the marriage is dissolved after many years, the bread-winning spouse can clearly be at a huge financial advantage. The stay-at-home spouse may be viewed as a dependent by a court, and most likely require some time and perhaps education, to get a foothold back in the marketplace. To NOT pay spousal support in these cases, where there is obvious need, punishes the stay-at-home spouse. There are many different types of spousal support with differing situations for each. Perhaps you should research it a bit so you might understand it a bit better. I'm not a fan of unjustified claims for support, but I certainly understand that many times, it is absolutely the most fair and equitable resolution.
Last edited by ChessieMom; 04-18-2011 at 08:13 PM..
No, she said
Taking the bolded statements it would show that she understand the responsibility to raise children. To raise them to be good citizens. Gee you think that nurture plays a role in it?
Does it sound like her children were deprived of shelter, nurture, and love? No it doesn't
When she's repeatedly stating that a career should come first then yes, I do believe it sounds like her children were deprived of a parent who truly understood what was important.
One bolded statement doesn't change the fact that she's repeatedly stated that careers should be a top priority to any parent.
Of course, to me it's important to raise a child who not only has a good work ethic but understands what it's like to be loved and important. From her posts, I don't think Ivory understands that concept.
I simply said I think it's sad that you put yours first, above your family and your kids. Don't say you don't, you've hardly mentioned them at all while you're consistently telling others that being a parent is secondary to a career and having an income. Your words make it quite clear that your first priority is yourself and your career.
So I feel bad for you, and I feel even worse for your kids.
And how would you know this? You are out of line with this post.
You have no right to tell me what my priorities are. There is plenty of time to have both family and career and that is all there is to this. I have both because I have time for both. I don't have to choose. However, having both does not mean I put career above family. It just means I have time for both so I have both. You have no right to accuse me of putting career or myself first. Please stick to the debate at hand.
When she's repeatedly stating that a career should come first then yes, I do believe it sounds like her children were deprived of a parent who truly understood what was important.
One bolded statement doesn't change the fact that she's repeatedly stated that careers should be a top priority to any parent.
Of course, to me it's important to raise a child who not only has a good work ethic but understands what it's like to be loved and important. From her posts, I don't think Ivory understands that concept.
Can you honestly say her children are deprived of nurture, care and love?
When she's repeatedly stating that a career should come first then yes, I do believe it sounds like her children were deprived of a parent who truly understood what was important.
One bolded statement doesn't change the fact that she's repeatedly stated that careers should be a top priority to any parent.
Of course, to me it's important to raise a child who not only has a good work ethic but understands what it's like to be loved and important. From her posts, I don't think Ivory understands that concept.
And WHY did I say a career should be a top priority for a parent? So the parent can support their CHILDREN!!! One of my obligations, as a mother, is to make sure my children are fed, clothed and have a roof over their heads both now and in the future.
Yes, I believe that mothers should protect their ability to support their families because they may need it some day but it's FOR THE FAMILY. My career is more important now that I'm a mother because, someday, it may be what feeds my kids. THEY are my first priority. I'd be a lousy mother if I risked their financial well being for no good reason.
You can stop with the insults now. They don't make you look intelligent. They make you look like you're losing this debate and attacking the poster instead of debating the issue at hand because you're losing the debate.
Can you honestly say her children are deprived of nurture, care and love?
Thanks. I have no idea why some people would accuse someone of not putting their family first just because they work. I wonder if she accuses her husband of putting his career before family?
Fortunately, I live in a day and age when so much work has been taken out of the home there's plenty of time for both children and a career. I like it like that. I like knowing that I can take care of my children physically, emotionally and financially. I think it's cool I live in a day and age when I can do it all. My grandmother never had a choice. She was powerless to improve her family's situation because she just didn't have the time. I do and I'm proud that I have. I was the breadwinner in this family for several years and that is something to be proud of and I am proud of it. My children are also nurtured, cared for and loved. Career and motherhood are not mutually exclusive. You can do both.
Thanks. I have no idea why some people would accuse someone of not putting their family first just because they work. I wonder if she accuses her husband of putting his career before family?
Fortunately, I live in a day and age when so much work has been taken out of the home there's plenty of time for both children and a career. I like it like that. I like knowing that I can take care of my children physically, emotionally and financially. I think it's cool I live in a day and age when I can do it all. My grandmother never had a choice. She was powerless to improve her family's situation because she just didn't have the time. I do and I'm proud that I have. I was the breadwinner in this family for several years and that is something to be proud of and I am proud of it. My children are also nurtured, cared for and loved. Career and motherhood are not mutually exclusive. You can do both.
I agree 1000%
There are success stories left and right. Mother, and grandmothers and even some great, great grandmothers acheiving both.
Both my grandmothers did. My grandmother also bought her own land and would buy neighboring ranches when they came up for sale, post homestead days. She was also a school teacher and mother to seven children.
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You are out of line with this post.
