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The problem with these archaeologists is that they are still living in the past century. And as usual, most of them do not believe the Biblical account. So they don't follow the clues given in the Bible. Those who have taken the time to consider the Biblical location of the Exodus, have hit paydirt. It's almost to funny. We have Red Granit pillars marking the crossing site, and placed there by King Solomon. It's almost like a lighted neon sign. Yet are expert archaeologist are still sifting sand in all the wrong locations, and saying the Exodus was just a myth. They are truly cluless. And instead of them coming to consider this wealth of evidence. They sit in their sand boxs, continually making wrong assumptions based on their wrong locations. When the evidence is sitting right at their front door, they ignore it. And then travel miles away trying to explain it away.
It is becoming increasingly clear that there is nothing relevant to support this latest hypothesis.
That there is no documentary support for the exodus is evident.
That the Hyksos connection dos not stand up and Chronologically it seems impossible to fit an Exodus anywhere without running up against serious problems.
That the wealth of evidence indicates the exodus as fact rather than myth is beginning to look -as suspected - due only to the imaginations of followers of whacky Wyatt. The pillars and inscriptions are later, the altar is boulders and graffiti, the blackening of the mountain signifies nothing much, the split rock is just a split rock, the cave is just a cave, the boundary markers and pillars seem no more than scatters of stones.
In looking around I noted that the only relevant academic contributor to Moller's book, Prof Kitchen, causes some exasperations amongst his peers by partial presentation of evidence and explaining away of lack of evidence in efforts to prove the Bible true.
As so often has been the case, I suspect that the last laugh is not going to be yours.
Assuming that the reading of the pillar inscription is correct, yes, I would imagine that he might well have put the pillars at a place he thought likely. The numbers of people involved are as disputable as the event itself - I'll come to that in a minute.
I have been looking a bit further and there are some who prefer the J. Musa mountain in Sinai to Al Lawz in S. Arabia. There is a suitable 'Elijah cave' there as well and I am very sceptical about that supposed altar.
The boundary markers and pillars turn out to be scatters of stones. Of course, if there are a regular series of these of the right number that would suit your view, but are there? I imagine it would be very easy to ignore a few others which did not fit the sequence or to to argue that a few missing sactters must have been removed. I don't know, but already there seems to be a degree of imagination running wild here.
"The Twelve Pillars
Cornuke and Williams discovered twelve pillars at the base of the mountain. Exodus 24:4 records that God commanded Moses to set up just such pillars. However, later investigation revealed that these pillars date from the first century AD, and are therefore not evidence for Jabal al Lawz.
Scorched Mountaintop
Cornuke: "[W]e found the top of the mountain to be thoroughly blackened, as if the rocks had been severely scorched from without. When we broke open the rocks, we found that they were actually granite rocks with a blackened "rind" and an untouched core of pure granite inside." (BASE Institute) However, geologist Dr. John Morris states that the Jebel al-Lawz rock he examined was normal metamorphic rock typical for the volcanic area it came from, and that there was nothing strange about it. (Sparks)
The Altar of the Golden Calf
Like the twelve pillars, this altar does not date from the time period of the Exodus and is therefore not evidence for Jabal al Lawz. Cornuke, however, still believes that the altar is authentic."
In case you think this site is purely debunkive (copyright on that term)
"and you shall strike the rock, and water shall come out of it, that the people may drink. And Moses did so in the sight of the elders of Israel" (Exodus 17:6-7). Cornuke stated: "One of the most startling discoveries at Jabal al Lawz was a massive, prominent, split rock on the west side of Jabal al Lawz, which showed evidence of gushing water from within - jagged rocks that had been smoothed off by an abundant flow of water." (BASE Institute) Skeptics have yet to provide an argument to counter this evidence."
The Search for Mount Sinai (http://www.teamroberts.org/mountsinai/jabalallawz.htm#pillars - broken link)
I can only suggest that it is a big rock, and it is split as exposed rocks in areas with hot days and freezing nights can be. The Erosion looks by sand rather than water.
If one supposes that the red Sea crossing is the gulf of Aquaba arm east of sinai, then Saudi arabia has to be the site, but, if one makes it the Gulf of suez arm, then Jebr Musa is a better candidate.
Now, I looked into the chronology because I mentioned that Ahmose was far too early for an Exodus from Pi-Ramesh, the capital of ramesses in the delta. I noted that Exodus mentions that Moses avoided going straight to Canaan via gaza because of the fighting in Philistia. That must put the Exodus date rather later, after 1190 when the Aegean Peleset were setlled on the Canaan coast by Ramesses III. The Exodus is loking alarmingly near to the date of a fully developed Kindom of Israel.
What is more likely is that Exodus has a few anachronisms because it was written long after the supposed date and if they got that wrong, what else was wrong?
Your belief that the boundary stones turned out to be nothing more then scattered stones has nothing to do with reality. Who told you they are nothing but scattered stones? Could you please leave a link. Because Cornuke writes the large piles of rocks were arranged in a semicircle around the front of the mountain, spaced every 400 yards. Measuring about five feet high and 20 feet across.
The altar of the golden calf does not date from the time period of the Exodus? Please give me a break. How does one draw such a conclusion? Especially when we are only looking and large stones piled on top of each other. Again, could you please leave us a link? Are you suggesting the stones would be piled up in a different way if they were placed there in some other time period? PLEASE.
And Solomon must of been the luckiest man on earth, because he was so right on where he placed those pillars. He also placed the pillars in the only area of the Gulf of Aqaba were an underwater land bridge has been discovered. Lucky guess?
And your belief that the split rock of Horeb showd erosion made by blowing sand is not shared at all by those who actually saw the rock up close. Cornuke and others have stated this rock showed all the evidence of erosion cause by gushing water. And not by blowing sand.
And as far as Geologist Dr. John Morris saying that the scorched rock found on the top of the mountain was typical metamorphic rock for a volcanic area. I'm sure that is true. Yet, he still did not explain to us why only this rock was found at the top of Mt. Sinia. And no where else in the area.
Again most of your beliefs do not appear to be based on any real facts. You offer your personal assumptions, while you ignore the people who were actually there. Why is that?
So Rafius, how do you think Solomon knew were to place those Red Granit pillars? Do you think he used a depth meter that showed him the only underwater land bridge found in the Gulf of Aqaba? Now that we are speaking of meters. Any opinion on that?
Your belief that the boundary stones turned out to be nothing more then scattered stones has nothing to do with reality. Who told you they are nothing but scattered stones? Could you please leave a link. Because Cornuke writes the large piles of rocks were arranged in a semicircle around the front of the mountain, spaced every 400 yards. Measuring about five feet high and 20 feet across.
I gave you the link. It was to a photograph. I was expecting something more like boundary stones than scatters of stones. That said I also raised the question of regular arrangement. The link I gave mentioned they were of late date but I don't know why. I am going to have to find answers to these qustions. It is pointless to ask you to look. You merely paste quotes from evagelical sites and demand to be disproved.
Quote:
The altar of the golden calf does not date from the time period of the Exodus? Please give me a break. How does one draw such a conclusion? Especially when we are only looking and large stones piled on top of each other. Again, could you please leave us a link? Are you suggesting the stones would be piled up in a different way if they were placed there in some other time period? PLEASE.
I already gave you the link. Yes, I wondered about the date claim and whether that related to the other supposed altar. I recall there are supposed to be two. On the other hand there are the artworks which you rather conveniently forget. I mentioned at first sight that they didn't look all that ancient.
Quote:
And Solomon must of been the luckiest man on earth, because he was so right on where he placed those pillars. He also placed the pillars in the only area of the Gulf of Aqaba were an underwater land bridge has been discovered. Lucky guess?
I can't say until I look into that further.
Quote:
And your belief that the split rock of Horeb showd erosion made by blowing sand is not shared at all by those who actually saw the rock up close. Cornuke and others have stated this rock showed all the evidence of erosion cause by gushing water. And not by blowing sand.
Well, they would.
Quote:
And as far as Geologist Dr. John Morris saying that the scorched rock found on the top of the mountain was typical metamorphic rock for a volcanic area. I'm sure that is true. Yet, he still did not explain to us why only this rock was found at the top of Mt. Sinia. And no where else in the area.
No he didn't. I wondered also whether there would be similar features on other mountains. Again, I shall have to look as you won't of course.
However, I would ask you to try to explain to me how the Exodus could have occurred in the time of Ahmose, the time of Ramesses II and in the time of the Philistines after Mereneptah had defeated a number of peoples including Israel. If you can't, then no matter how much the features seem to lend themselves to the exodus story, that story can't be correct as described in the bible.
Quote:
Again most of your beliefs do not appear to be based on any real facts. You offer your personal assumptions, while you ignore the people who were actually there. Why is that?
My personal assumption at least show that your evidence as presented was very inadequate. You first posted some videos and expected me to do your work. You then posted a string of claims which were actually the conclusions rather than the evidence. I have found at least that the conclusions were very much overdrawn and you have been gradually retreating by pointing up some (as yet) unexplained factors while remaining obstinately silent about any of the disproofs of the exodus story I put forward. Can I take it that you accept that the Tempest stele and the Hykos connection is dead meat?
Because you should bear in mind that, even if I can't answer your remaining queries, the exodus as described in the Bible really cannot be true.
I gave you the link. It was to a photograph. I was expecting something more like boundary stones than scatters of stones. That said I also raised the question of regular arrangement. The link I gave mentioned they were of late date but I don't know why. I am going to have to find answers to these qustions. It is pointless to ask you to look. You merely paste quotes from evagelical sites and demand to be disproved.
I already gave you the link. Yes, I wondered about the date claim and whether that related to the other supposed altar. I recall there are supposed to be two. On the other hand there are the artworks which you rather conveniently forget. I mentioned at first sight that they didn't look all that ancient.
I can't say until I look into that further.
Well, they would.
No he didn't. I wondered also whether there would be similar features on other mountains. Again, I shall have to look as you won't of course.
However, I would ask you to try to explain to me how the Exodus could have occurred in the time of Ahmose, the time of Ramesses II and in the time of the Philistines after Mereneptah had defeated a number of peoples including Israel. If you can't, then no matter how much the features seem to lend themselves to the exodus story, that story can't be correct as described in the bible.
My personal assumption at least show that your evidence as presented was very inadequate. You first posted some videos and expected me to do your work. You then posted a string of claims which were actually the conclusions rather than the evidence. I have found at least that the conclusions were very much overdrawn and you have been gradually retreating by pointing up some (as yet) unexplained factors while remaining obstinately silent about any of the disproofs of the exodus story I put forward. Can I take it that you accept that the Tempest stele and the Hykos connection is dead meat?
Because you should bear in mind that, even if I can't answer your remaining queries, the exodus as described in the Bible really cannot be true.
It should be obvious that if there are numerous boundry markers around the mountain, you can not say they are just scattered stones based on one photograph. And you did that, while you ignored what Cornuke and others told you.
The reason I only refer to evagelical sites, is because it is only evagelicals that have actually gone there. Your expert archeologist are to busy laying back in their armchairs. If I'm wrong, can you give us a link that shows your people doing the research at that site?
Their will always be debate of the timing of the Exodus. However a number of scholars believe the Exodus occured during the reign of Amenophis. This belief was also expressed by Josephus who stated that Manetho and Cheremon, who were Egyptian historians that lived around the 3rd century B.C. Both mentioned Moses as the leader of the Jewish race. And they to stated that the exodus occured during the reign of Amenophis, who was the son of Rameses. This understanding would place the exodus somewhere between 1500 and 1400 B.C.
You have found their conclusion were very much over drawn? Based on what? You don't have any evidence. You were not at the site. And many of your conclusions are based on nothing. You look at one photograph and then say the boundry stones are just scattered rocks. You have to be joking. Do your really think everyone is that stupid. I have never seen such a bias opinion pushed without any supportive evidence. You simply ignore what other have stated. And then make up your own inaccurate stories, based on your own imagination. And you expect us to believe your fantasies? I'm starting to feel like I'm talking with an eight year old.
Solomon who??? A 'biblical' figure with no historical evidence old chap....just like Jesus.
Well old chap Solomon is spoken of in the Bible. And his name is also found on those 18 foot Red Granit pillars at the beach of Nuweiba. So you would be wrong if you thought there was no historical evidence for his existance. However, like all non believers. Now you will have even more evidence to ignore.
It is becoming increasingly clear that there is nothing relevant to support this latest hypothesis.
That there is no documentary support for the exodus is evident.
That the Hyksos connection dos not stand up and Chronologically it seems impossible to fit an Exodus anywhere without running up against serious problems.
That the wealth of evidence indicates the exodus as fact rather than myth is beginning to look -as suspected - due only to the imaginations of followers of whacky Wyatt. The pillars and inscriptions are later, the altar is boulders and graffiti, the blackening of the mountain signifies nothing much, the split rock is just a split rock, the cave is just a cave, the boundary markers and pillars seem no more than scatters of stones.
In looking around I noted that the only relevant academic contributor to Moller's book, Prof Kitchen, causes some exasperations amongst his peers by partial presentation of evidence and explaining away of lack of evidence in efforts to prove the Bible true.
As so often has been the case, I suspect that the last laugh is not going to be yours.
There is no documentary evidence that supports the Exodus event?
Truly you must go through life with blinders on. Josephus speaks of two Egyptian historians named Manetho and Cheremon. They lived around the 3rd. century B.C. And they both spoke of Moses as the leader of the Hebrew people. And they both confirmed that the Exodus occured during the reign of "Amenophis". Which would place the Exodus around 1500 and 1400 B.C.
So just keep repeating that nonsense that there is no documentary evidence that supports the Exodus event. After all, as long as you can ignore all historical accounts there never will be any evidence for you to consider. However, you may need to live in a sound proof box. Naturally you don't want to be confronted with any of those historical accounts.
Last edited by Campbell34; 11-16-2010 at 02:59 AM..
I have been doing a lot of reading lately and came across this website. Totally fascinating! There is a lot of info on this link, but the one that pops out at me is about the story of the Exodus. I was always taught (when I was in church) that everything in the Bible is documented history. Apparently it is not. Anyone else have any opinions on all this?
Jesus wasn't even documented in any place other than the bible. Josephus, the Jewish historian mentioned his name as a scribe. No virgin birth or miracles, just a scribe.
The remainder of the bible falls within deep doubt because of that. That is just my opinion.
Last edited by Ranctum; 11-16-2010 at 06:41 AM..
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