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Old 10-19-2011, 05:49 PM
 
Location: Ohio
13,951 posts, read 10,317,512 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo View Post
I freely admit that for me coming here to a DISCUSSION forum is about winning and losing. I would never lie and pretend otherwise. However if you think it is all about winning for me then you have got me more wrong than you could possibly no.
.
It's not really what you say, but how you phrase it that comes off snarky. It's a put-off, at least for me anyway. You want to have a DISCUSSION and shown where you are wrong? { If you are or strengthen your beliefs if you aren't } Then don't approach the subject with an argumentative or confrontational attitude. Maybe you didnt see it that way but I did. I, like you, am here to have discussions, but not arguments. { at least not when an argument isn't required } If someone disagrees with me, that's ok.

Anyway, I'm not one for whining so..........

Ive read many of your posts and for the most part agree with the things you say. Infact, it has been some of your posts that have changed my mind on certain things, or at least made me see where there could be flaws in my logic. This however, we will agree to disagree, yes?

Last edited by WhipperSnapper 88; 10-19-2011 at 06:12 PM..
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Old 10-19-2011, 09:13 PM
 
3,488 posts, read 3,149,618 times
Reputation: 738
If you two ever end up killing each other, I'll let the other forum members communicate with you (and vice versa) via my brand new, previously mentioned "e-mail the dead" service I mentioned!

Now taking Visa!
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Old 10-20-2011, 05:34 AM
 
Location: Oxford, England
13,036 posts, read 21,523,143 times
Reputation: 19858
Every day. I live with chronic depression and death is often a very attractive prospect. Suicidal thoughts come with the package.

I have learnt to embrace that darkness though rather than trying to fight it. I have no fear of death only pain and losing my dignity in sickness.

Death to me is only a final chapter , nothing to be scared about. I try to live my life to the full as much as I can and try to be as active as possible but death often feels like a sweet release from illness and depression. I do not fear it in the least. As long as you had led a decent life and tried your best then what is there to fear ?
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Old 10-20-2011, 10:31 AM
 
12,430 posts, read 14,565,228 times
Reputation: 14142
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trimac20 View Post
After a traumatic experience I find myself thinking about it alot more than I used to. My ponderings and questionings related to philosophy, religion and life in general often lead to me dwelling, usually negatively, about death. The shortness of life, the inevitability of my extinction, my fate after death, those sort of things. Prior to this, I would have periods where I'd think of it a bit too much, but usually it was kept in the back of my mind. It resurfaces when someone close to me dies or when I hear about death in the news. Visiting cemeteries also causes one to reflect on death and consequently on life too. Being anxious can be a stressful experience because you are painfully aware of how delicate the mortal coil is: in other words, how easy it is to cross over from life to death. One wrong turn on the road, one slip in the shower, choking on food or something...in a highly anxious state one sees threats everywhere! It's a rather horrible way to live, but anyway, getting off topic a bit lol.

Also does it usually bring you positive or negative thoughts? I can imagine only someone with strong religious convictions would be overjoyed by the thought, while an atheist might be neutral about it at best.
I sometimes ponder what the lives of those around me will be like when I am gone....I worry that I won't be there to provide support and comfort for those I love and care for.....all my anxieties about death are about what I won't be able to do for others when I'm gone.....as for death itself...I have no fear....and most certainly I don't dwell on something that will without doubt, inevitably take place.
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Old 10-21-2011, 01:33 AM
 
7,811 posts, read 5,061,833 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper 88 View Post
It's not really what you say, but how you phrase it that comes off snarky.
Few people complain and quite a lot thank me and PM me thanks too. So if there is a problem it is with you not me. You will just have to get over it. It is off topic for the thread and if you have any more issue with me personally I recommend taking it up with the mods. Whining on here will only annoy other users and derail the thread.

To go back on topic however it is clear we as humans think of our own death all the time. I see no reason at all to think that animals contemplate it or understand it or are even aware of it aside from programmed instincts to avoid injury and pain in themselves and others in their group.

I realise the complex behaviors of animals can result in us attributing human thoughts, motivations and emotions to those behaviors, but upon closer inspection you will find that there are perfectly good evolutionary explanations for those behaviors that do not require the kind of "anamalistic pathetic fallacy" of assigning human subjectivity to those actions.

The animal going off to die one was a great example and I am glad one of us thought of it, even if it was not me. There are very good evolutionary reasons for this being a selected for behavior. Going off to die in many situations and for many reasons I could list, would be advantageous to the survival of ones genes in the next generation.

The contemplation of death itself, as well as things like beauty and art, are all likely unique to our species and maybe a couple of others but certainly not many. There have been recent observations of things like apes coming to the same spot every day to stare at a particularly majestic water fall showing they MIGHT on some level appreciate beauty etc. Though there also could be other explanations for that behavior too but I have not thought of any.
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Old 10-21-2011, 06:32 AM
 
Location: The western periphery of Terra Australis
24,683 posts, read 43,159,772 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo View Post
Few people complain and quite a lot thank me and PM me thanks too. So if there is a problem it is with you not me. You will just have to get over it. It is off topic for the thread and if you have any more issue with me personally I recommend taking it up with the mods. Whining on here will only annoy other users and derail the thread.

To go back on topic however it is clear we as humans think of our own death all the time. I see no reason at all to think that animals contemplate it or understand it or are even aware of it aside from programmed instincts to avoid injury and pain in themselves and others in their group.

I realise the complex behaviors of animals can result in us attributing human thoughts, motivations and emotions to those behaviors, but upon closer inspection you will find that there are perfectly good evolutionary explanations for those behaviors that do not require the kind of "anamalistic pathetic fallacy" of assigning human subjectivity to those actions.

The animal going off to die one was a great example and I am glad one of us thought of it, even if it was not me. There are very good evolutionary reasons for this being a selected for behavior. Going off to die in many situations and for many reasons I could list, would be advantageous to the survival of ones genes in the next generation.

The contemplation of death itself, as well as things like beauty and art, are all likely unique to our species and maybe a couple of others but certainly not many. There have been recent observations of things like apes coming to the same spot every day to stare at a particularly majestic water fall showing they MIGHT on some level appreciate beauty etc. Though there also could be other explanations for that behavior too but I have not thought of any.
I sometimes wonder if it's true that humans are the only species who are aware of their own mortality. I think apes/dolphins etc are possibly intelligent enough to know at least that other apes and dolphins do die, they just 'disappear', and who knows, maybe even smart enough to speculate about what happens to them. We can't say for sure, as no one's ever asked a dolphin or a chimp. They can be remarkably intelligent and aware so it wouldn't surprise me.
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Old 10-21-2011, 07:01 AM
 
7,811 posts, read 5,061,833 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trimac20 View Post
I sometimes wonder if it's true that humans are the only species who are aware of their own mortality. I think apes/dolphins etc are possibly intelligent enough to know at least that other apes and dolphins do die, they just 'disappear', and who knows, maybe even smart enough to speculate about what happens to them. We can't say for sure, as no one's ever asked a dolphin or a chimp. They can be remarkably intelligent and aware so it wouldn't surprise me.
Well I did qualify the end of my last post with "unique to our species and maybe a couple of others" so I do wonder about the same thing as you myself, but to be honest I see very little to suggest that the level of abstract thought required to contemplate ideas like death beyond some cursory level is present in such creatures. Admitedly my knowledge on the subject is low.... and I am aware that some of them have under laboratory conditions displayed levels of intelligence we previously did not consider them capable of....

but it would still be a leap to go from such feats to assuming they are capable of contemplating nonexistence. Even we as humans find it a difficult concept to get our heads around.... so difficult for some in fact that they invent whole after lives to believe in rather than make the attempt.

tgnostic - I am afraid I literally have no idea what you are talking about, nor the relevance Halloween has to the thread.
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Old 10-21-2011, 08:19 PM
 
Location: Ohio
13,951 posts, read 10,317,512 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo View Post
Few people complain
Did you not say this......

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo View Post
I
Despite my.... what was the word someone used about me recently bear with me while I look this up on another forum......
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _____________
Quote:
and quite a lot thank me and PM me thanks too.
Did I not say this.......

Quote:
Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper 88 View Post
Ive read many of your posts and for the most part agree with the things you say. Infact, it has been some of your posts that have changed my mind on certain things, or at least made me see where there could be flaws in my logic. ?
Quote:
The animal going off to die one was a great example and I am glad one of us thought of it, even if it was not me. There are very good evolutionary reasons for this being a selected for behavior. Going off to die in many situations and for many reasons I could list, would be advantageous to the survival of ones genes in the next generation
Maybe you could explain what you mean by this? I am genuinely curious how going off to die could preserve the organisms genes in the next generation?

Quote:
The contemplation of death itself, as well as things like beauty and art, are all likely unique to our species and maybe a couple of others .
[/quote]
Sounds like your riding the fence to me, commit to a viewpoint.

{ I can be uneccesarily combative to }
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Old 10-21-2011, 09:22 PM
 
Location: Tucson/Nogales
16,480 posts, read 20,016,951 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper 88 View Post
I have often looked at older people in my life { 60's and 70's } and wondered to mmyself how it must feel to be them, knowing that they have nearly ran their run. Sometimes I think, " how can they NOT be going crazy knowing their number will soon be up?" But then I think that they probly dont want to waste the time they have left worrying about the end.
No wise man ever wished to grow younger!
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Old 10-21-2011, 09:23 PM
 
3,488 posts, read 3,149,618 times
Reputation: 738
If an animal is a burden to the pack, whether through ilness, injury or old age, then going off and dying would be the best way to insure that it's genes (which have already been passed on to it's offspring) have a better chance of survival. Injured, ill and old animals can slow a pack down, use up more resources, open the pack up to attack, etc, etc.

So in this instance - what he said was correct. It CAN insure it's gene's survival in the next generation a little better. Somewhat coldly, think of the money we spend on our relatives to insure they live as long as possible, using as much money as possible to extend their life. Somtimes, a financial burden is lifted upon their death. Cold... yes.
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