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I only read a few of the posts so this definetly isn't directed towards everyone....
first of all... as a Christian, it is not your duty to judge anyone, so leave your judgemental comments to yourself. Telling someone that they are wrong is a judgement, that is your interpretation of a writing, who know's what the real interpretation truly is. Don't start quoting the Bible, I know what it says, I am a former Christian, but just realize that telling someone that they are wrong based on an interpretation is a judgement.
Secondly... who are you to tell ANYONE on this planet that they are sinners when you yourself sin every single day. And yes, some of the sins you do you repeat daily. Do you say "oh my god" do you disrespect your mother, are you divorced? everytime you have sexual relations with your second partner you are "sinning", do you ever masturbate? "sin". Do not criticize until you are perfect. Don't tell someone that they can't follow a religion because they are gay if you follow the same religion and are any of the above or many more.
Third... Why would God really care about whether or not someone is gay? Don't give me the whole reproduction thing, because right now there's overpopulation, so that might be a good thing if more people were gay. Anyway, are you afraid everyone might become gay? are you having feelings for someone of your gender? Obviously not... so don't argue with others, let God do his business, and all will fall into place.
Just a thought here...sometimes we try to advise someone in the way that we think is "truth" because we love and we care about them and we don't want to see them be deceived. Now yes, we could be wrong about what "truth" is. But what if we're not? Doesn't love demand telling someone what you at least perceive the truth to be...especially when they're asking for your opinion? (I don't mean this to apply solely to homosexuality but to anything in life.)
Just a thought here...sometimes we try to advise someone in the way that we think is "truth" because we love and we care about them and we don't want to see them be deceived. Now yes, we could be wrong about what "truth" is. But what if we're not? Doesn't love demand telling someone what you at least perceive the truth to be...especially when they're asking for your opinion? (I don't mean this to apply solely to homosexuality but to anything in life.)
well... my point is...
In the case of homosexuality: It is your belief that that is wrong. Your beleif is based on a writing that was written hundreds of years ago... in a time when things that were different were shunned. It has nothing to do with religion but with documentation of times.
As for what you said: It's pretty obvious to me that you're not understanding what I wrote, which is understandable because it was unclearly written when I was extremely tired. I wanted to say that who is anyone to say, within Christianity, that someone is a sinner while they sin just as much and just as often? It seems to me that people fight against homosexuality more often than they fight against people saying the Lord's name in vain or divorce. People fight against ALL homosexuals, but when they see a agnostic couple get divorced they just say "well they're not Christian." It seems to me that people are afraid of what seems different.
Another point: a truly racist person sees it as truth that a person with different skin as them is wrong. Are they allowed to tell them that they are wrong? Obviously not. When do we draw the line?
Doesn't love demand telling someone what you at least perceive the truth to be...especially when they're asking for your opinion? (I don't mean this to apply solely to homosexuality but to anything in life.)
Sometimes. Sometimes not. Unfotunately, people are often motivated more by their own self righteousness than they are by true love. And, what you might perceive to be love, might be received or interpreted as hateful, hurtful or plain ignorant to someone else. Oftentimes the best way to demonstrate love is to be quiet, to listen and to show compassion--recognizing that you don't always have the answers.
Sometimes. Sometimes not. Unfotunately, people are often motivated more by their own self righteousness than they are by true love. And, what you might perceive to be love, might be received or interpreted as hateful, hurtful or plain ignorant to someone else. Oftentimes the best way to demonstrate love is to be quiet, to listen and to show compassion--recognizing that you don't always have the answers.
Dear Rob,
After reading this thread, I only know one thing for sure. You and I are creatures of God.
People wrote in some amazingly beautiful reflections in this thread. I cannot comment upon them with specifity because I, too, am very tired right now. My mind does not work well much of the time. I am disabled. I feel very isolated from society/people. As someone mentioned, my physical condition prevents me from sharing my life with another as I am viewed as damaged goods in this culture.
I don't know how I would feel if I knew I was disabled like I am since childhood. Surely, I would have had different expectations from life and from people. I thought I could grow up, marry, have childred and participate in the "normal struggles of life" (what are they? more typical than I have). No one can tell me that someday I will meet someone who sees my special gifts from God and ask me to share his (I am female, hetero). The only men interested in me since the disability has controlled my ability to think, walk, and focus on anything but working through my challenges enough to get bills paid, get medical care, etc. have been men who truely don't understand that I cannot do the typical things with them or Parasites. Yes, parasites. I have lost years, money, and extremely limited energy on these men...
When someone wrote in and suggested that people like me were in the same boat as you, large tears streamed down my face. The reason why I started reading this thread (I should be resting) is that I feel alone and isolated and I also am looking for a church where I can feel a part of God's family. I believe that in our culture we are like little children in that we can't seem to accept anything out of the norm. For some, you can see the fear or hear it in their voices as they distance from you. For others, they say they accept you (after all, it's not your fault, anything less would be ignorant/callous) but they do not live their lives as if they accept you. The phone only rings when the recorded voice tells me my chance to buy a warranty for a car I do not own is about to expire....
If people call me, social ettiquete (sorry, can't type) says they have to ask me how I am.. Most people don't want to know. Maybe they will become ill someday and suffer. It is too scary for them. Or if they knew, they might be forced by some rule to offer to help. Life is complex, and they don't have the energy. So, I don't even have "girlfriends" these days.
I do respect, agree and truely hurt for the fact (not opinion) that my desires are acceptable in society and religions whereas yours are not. There, my friend, your path branches out from mine. How Horrible. You desire to love and be loved and to have that accepted by society and religion. It is not. That is your crucible. I can offer to share your struggles.
In terms of advice, we are dealing with a topic that is not accesible, in my opinion, to the limits culture places on our thoughts. What was once a sin is now no longer a sin. What is sinful in the US is not perceived as sinfulin Europe. So, we have passed being able to know for certain. This may be good. What is left? The present. The feelings pushing and pulling on your body, the mind racing for answers or slowing as we feel we must give up the struggle to know anything for certain. Who are we, with our human constraints of thought, to assume that we can know what God would juge at times like these. God is love. He is kinder than I. I juge without full understanding, He does not. Stop. The love is there, every minute (a human concept) God thinks about us, obsessed with his creation. Can we imagine that? I can't, in a true sense.
God is beyond our comprehension. All we can do is feel what is going on with us at the moment. Accept it. And choose compasion. For ourselves. Some pain is beyond human. It is in God's realm. You exist there most of your life at this point. Exist with God and choose compasion for yourself at this moment. Don't think about the future. You are not in that realm during your deepest struggles. You have transcended the human. Be with God, always know you are encircled by his love, try to feel it.
I don't mean it in any hokey manner. This is way beyond talking to a priest or going to some support group. You and I cannot join with another at this moment. That is ok. We cannot think about the future of past. When the struggle is unbearable, we are trancendent.
This must sound nuts If I did not meditate I can't see how I would be alive now. Fortunately I went to Vipassana meditation retreats with a really wonderful teacher before I could not get around. He helped us use eastern techniques outside of the religious constructs. We are free to integrate out concepts of God into our experience. All of the retreats are at Catholic Centers (they have the good real estate ). So Jesus is on the cross as we meditate.
A few times I have felt the peace I attribute to God's presence, the exhuberence, and once the knowingness of what I had to do. Peace occurred in a Catholic church. Bliss, in nature. And knowingness in daily life, patterning my actions upon the feeling I get when I think of the Dali Lama. I do not try to figure this out. I am grateful for feeling the presence and direction of God.
As to joining a religion, more difficulty there. Perhaps the Catholic church has changed over 25 years and is more open. By more open I mean king of a "don't ask don't tell" policy. Do they really push that people practicing other religions will go to hell? Would you be shunned for wearing a crucifix, if people knew you were gay? I don't want to practice in a community like that. I may just have to accept the we just don't dwell on that here. The faith I am in now is very jugemental and I feel suffocated. I just don't feel joy when I learn their beliefs (it is a protestant sect). I moved to MN from CA about 20 months ago and this is where I became involved when I could get around more. It will be difficult to get to a Catholic church but I feel a yearning, an unsettledness to do so.
With the limitations of people, esp. people in groups (Carl Jung said that all groups revert to their lowest common denominator) I expect I will have to go where I feel the best, even if it means I remain silent on certain topics. I have my experiences from God. There will be more. Some being with God and some directing my actions.
Rob, I do hope that you can at least get out of this strange post that I cry with you. I am trying to do the best I can to get more peace around my fellow man. And if I can't, I will be lonely but not alone. There is a difference.
Location: Somewhere along the path to where I'd like to be.
2,180 posts, read 5,421,662 times
Reputation: 829
Quote:
Originally Posted by localinsight
Dear Rob,
After reading this thread, I only know one thing for sure. You and I are creatures of God.
People wrote in some amazingly beautiful reflections in this thread. I cannot comment upon them with specifity because I, too, am very tired right now. My mind does not work well much of the time. I am disabled. I feel very isolated from society/people. As someone mentioned, my physical condition prevents me from sharing my life with another as I am viewed as damaged goods in this culture.
I don't know how I would feel if I knew I was disabled like I am since childhood. Surely, I would have had different expectations from life and from people. I thought I could grow up, marry, have childred and participate in the "normal struggles of life" (what are they? more typical than I have). No one can tell me that someday I will meet someone who sees my special gifts from God and ask me to share his (I am female, hetero). The only men interested in me since the disability has controlled my ability to think, walk, and focus on anything but working through my challenges enough to get bills paid, get medical care, etc. have been men who truely don't understand that I cannot do the typical things with them or Parasites. Yes, parasites. I have lost years, money, and extremely limited energy on these men...
When someone wrote in and suggested that people like me were in the same boat as you, large tears streamed down my face. The reason why I started reading this thread (I should be resting) is that I feel alone and isolated and I also am looking for a church where I can feel a part of God's family. I believe that in our culture we are like little children in that we can't seem to accept anything out of the norm. For some, you can see the fear or hear it in their voices as they distance from you. For others, they say they accept you (after all, it's not your fault, anything less would be ignorant/callous) but they do not live their lives as if they accept you. The phone only rings when the recorded voice tells me my chance to buy a warranty for a car I do not own is about to expire....
If people call me, social ettiquete (sorry, can't type) says they have to ask me how I am.. Most people don't want to know. Maybe they will become ill someday and suffer. It is too scary for them. Or if they knew, they might be forced by some rule to offer to help. Life is complex, and they don't have the energy. So, I don't even have "girlfriends" these days.
I do respect, agree and truely hurt for the fact (not opinion) that my desires are acceptable in society and religions whereas yours are not. There, my friend, your path branches out from mine. How Horrible. You desire to love and be loved and to have that accepted by society and religion. It is not. That is your crucible. I can offer to share your struggles.
In terms of advice, we are dealing with a topic that is not accesible, in my opinion, to the limits culture places on our thoughts. What was once a sin is now no longer a sin. What is sinful in the US is not perceived as sinfulin Europe. So, we have passed being able to know for certain. This may be good. What is left? The present. The feelings pushing and pulling on your body, the mind racing for answers or slowing as we feel we must give up the struggle to know anything for certain. Who are we, with our human constraints of thought, to assume that we can know what God would juge at times like these. God is love. He is kinder than I. I juge without full understanding, He does not. Stop. The love is there, every minute (a human concept) God thinks about us, obsessed with his creation. Can we imagine that? I can't, in a true sense.
God is beyond our comprehension. All we can do is feel what is going on with us at the moment. Accept it. And choose compasion. For ourselves. Some pain is beyond human. It is in God's realm. You exist there most of your life at this point. Exist with God and choose compasion for yourself at this moment. Don't think about the future. You are not in that realm during your deepest struggles. You have transcended the human. Be with God, always know you are encircled by his love, try to feel it.
I don't mean it in any hokey manner. This is way beyond talking to a priest or going to some support group. You and I cannot join with another at this moment. That is ok. We cannot think about the future of past. When the struggle is unbearable, we are trancendent.
This must sound nuts If I did not meditate I can't see how I would be alive now. Fortunately I went to Vipassana meditation retreats with a really wonderful teacher before I could not get around. He helped us use eastern techniques outside of the religious constructs. We are free to integrate out concepts of God into our experience. All of the retreats are at Catholic Centers (they have the good real estate ). So Jesus is on the cross as we meditate.
A few times I have felt the peace I attribute to God's presence, the exhuberence, and once the knowingness of what I had to do. Peace occurred in a Catholic church. Bliss, in nature. And knowingness in daily life, patterning my actions upon the feeling I get when I think of the Dali Lama. I do not try to figure this out. I am grateful for feeling the presence and direction of God.
As to joining a religion, more difficulty there. Perhaps the Catholic church has changed over 25 years and is more open. By more open I mean king of a "don't ask don't tell" policy. Do they really push that people practicing other religions will go to hell? Would you be shunned for wearing a crucifix, if people knew you were gay? I don't want to practice in a community like that. I may just have to accept the we just don't dwell on that here. The faith I am in now is very jugemental and I feel suffocated. I just don't feel joy when I learn their beliefs (it is a protestant sect). I moved to MN from CA about 20 months ago and this is where I became involved when I could get around more. It will be difficult to get to a Catholic church but I feel a yearning, an unsettledness to do so.
With the limitations of people, esp. people in groups (Carl Jung said that all groups revert to their lowest common denominator) I expect I will have to go where I feel the best, even if it means I remain silent on certain topics. I have my experiences from God. There will be more. Some being with God and some directing my actions.
Rob, I do hope that you can at least get out of this strange post that I cry with you. I am trying to do the best I can to get more peace around my fellow man. And if I can't, I will be lonely but not alone. There is a difference.
Peace, brother. I wish you well.
Jeanne
This is one of those posts when I truly don't know what to say. I likewise ask God to bring you the peace, serenity, and the tastes of Heaven into your life that He has brought into mine. They are experiences of His love which are truly beyond description.
Thank you so much for your kind words and encouragement, and I reflect those same sentiments back to you! God richly bless you and keep you in His arms which hold indescribable peace, mercy, love and infinite depths of beauty.
Ordinarily I would be the first one to complain about yet another thread pertaining to homosexuality. But I've decided to be an open book about this subject.
I will answer ANY question about being a "gay Christian" that anyone wants to ask me. (Keep it clean.) Or if you don't have a question, then just post a comment. I will consider what EVERYONE has to say - even if you tell me I'm deluded. (Because maybe I am. ) I'm just looking for some peace in my life, and maybe this will help. So ask away......or just vent. Or whatever. Let's have the one final grand debate to end all debates about this subject.
People are people. We were all put on this earth for a purpose and the purpose should be to get along with each other and live peacefully; not tear each other down and literally stone everyone to death for living a lifestyle they don't agree with.
I'm straight but I believe we should live and let live. Peace to you.
Do you beive being gay is a sin? Do you believe being gay is continuing to live in sin? Have you tried to stop being gay?
Sorry our church preaches strongly that being gay is a sin and was wondering how you feel about that?
Not judging you just wondering if you are writing this because you struggle with being gay or being a Christian or with how Christian view gays in general?
Quote:
Originally Posted by yayoi
Thank you for starting this thread WCRob. I hope you find the peace you are looking for as well.
I want to know how do you deal with people who say you are not a Christian because of the way you are?
Location: Somewhere along the path to where I'd like to be.
2,180 posts, read 5,421,662 times
Reputation: 829
Quote:
Originally Posted by LeeDalton
Do you beive being gay is a sin?
No.
I may not feel it is ideal, as if God intended anyone to be gay - but they are. It happens. So I don't believe God holds me accountable for having attractions I never really asked to have.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LeeDalton
Do you believe being gay is continuing to live in sin?
I'm not sure I understand your question. Are you asking me how I define being "gay"?
Quote:
Originally Posted by LeeDalton
Have you tried to stop being gay?
Yes. But it didn't work.
Have you tried to stop being straight? You can't do it, can you? You can't STOP being attracted to the opposite sex, can you? Well, it's the same thing with being gay. We can't just snap our fingers and stop being attracted to the same sex. It just doesn't work. Even if you're gay but choose to get married, on some level you are still attracted to the same sex.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LeeDalton
Sorry our church preaches strongly that being gay is a sin and was wondering how you feel about that?
I think it depends on what your church means when it says "being" gay is a sin.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LeeDalton
Not judging you just wondering if you are writing this because you struggle with being gay or being a Christian or with how Christian view gays in general?
I have no problems personally with myself being gay. At least not anymore. I completely accept it as who I am now. I have at times hated that part of who I am. But I've recently gotten past that. I now no longer hate that part of myself. So no, my struggle isn't with actually being gay.
My struggle has always been more involved with trying to figure out how to deal with wanting a relationship with a man while being confused about whether or not it was truly acceptable to God. And since there seem to be some conflicting opinions about that among theologians, I've simply decided to stop struggling. It's too exhausting.
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If I did not meditate I can't see how I would be alive now. Fortunately I went to Vipassana meditation retreats with a really wonderful teacher before I could not get around. He helped us use eastern techniques outside of the religious constructs. We are free to integrate out concepts of God into our experience. All of the retreats are at Catholic Centers (they have the good real estate 
). So Jesus is on the cross as we meditate. 
) I'm just looking for some peace in my life, and maybe this will help. So ask away......or just vent. Or whatever. Let's have the one final grand debate to end all debates about this subject.
Gay Christian?
