The latest in the "Ask a _____" series.....Ask a gay Christian. (grace, priest)

[Pathwalker]

Originally Posted by brittZ

I guess where I see that I might disagree with you, (at times because it seems your views have really changed) or anyone else, for that matter, is in order to truly accept Christ one must acknowledge their sins as God has defined them. Unfortunately for many people, sins are often not recognizable, or can somehow be justified in a multitude of ways. This does not mean someone needs to be sin free, that isn't possible, only that one must recognize, repent, and struggle to resolve their sins before God. No one can honestly stand and say, "I am Christian; I have accepted Christ into my life, " and then directly disobey the commands of Christ. It just doesn't work that way.

So do you consider homosexuality itself to be a sin? Or do you just think homosexual SEX is a sin?

[brittZ]

Originally Posted by WCRob

So do you consider homosexuality itself to be a sin? Or do you just think homosexual SEX is a sin?

Others may not agree with me, but my opinion is that it is the physical acts. I think we should strive for absolute control of our emotions and thoughts, but that is so far out of reach. I think we all struggle every minute of every day with what happens internally. It is the price of the sin nature we are born with. I think where people break down is when that struggle becomes overwhelming and the person gives in. I believe that is why God commands us not to judge. No one knows what is in another's heart, mind, and soul and henceforth we cannot judge the purity of that person. We can look and are called to look and call sin, sin where we see it. There is a difference between saying, what you did was wrong as opposed to you are a bad person for doing X (whatever X may be). It is the action not the temptation or the thought or the emotion.

I offer up prove of this in the fact that when refering to homosexuality, the bible always condemns the act. I do not have time to sort through right now, but if my memory serves me, it never talked about the internal issues; only the external expression. We will always be tempted. Even Christ was tempted - a lot. It is our giving in that causes the sin.

One side note is that this has nothing to do with what homosexuality is. It could be genetic, personality, choice, environment, or none or all of the above. It speaks about temptation, God's law, and the choice of obedience (in spite of the internal struggle) or disobedience. The cool thing is that God has more patience that we can possibly fathom and will always meet us where we are and take as long as we need.

[PrettyHateMachine]

This thread reminds me of the Dave Chapelle skit:
The black white supremacist. Especially the end, the reason why he divorced his wife.

In this case the only thing blinding you is mythology.

Self-loathing leads to self-pity, and that self-pity leads to self-destruction. Not a good thing, bro.

[Blueberry]

Originally Posted by WCRob

I can see how it might be possible that certain verses have been "altered" to reflect a personal bias. But the thing is, if there isn't some concrete proof that the Bible indeed said something different when written than what is currently believed, then I'm not likely to blindly accept that idea. I don't want to stake my life and salvation on a controversy.

This has got to be one of the most level-headed and wise statements I've seen in this forum! You are to be commended for considering the eternal consequences of your actions.

The last verse in Romans 14 talks about the man who has doubts about whether or not he is to eat something. If he has doubts, it is a sin (even if there is nothing wrong with it). That verse concludes that "everything that does not come from faith is sin."[/i]

*****

I pretty much agree with brittZ regarding the struggle you are facing, Rob, so I'm not going to rehash what has already been said. I just want to add a couple of thoughts to, hopefully, let you see things in a different light.

The loneliness you feel at times must be difficult to bear. You stated that at least heterosexuals have the option of marrying. Well, there are many straight people who yearn for marriage and love just as you do; however, because of varying circumstances (looks, physical ailments, etc.), they will never be considered marriageable material. They, too, yearn for love, closeness, comfort, and "physical release" from another individual; they, too, wish they could find life partners. So this isn't just a homosexual Christian problem. Many heterosexuals share your agony.

I stumbled across Romans 8:18 tonight and immediately thought of you. "I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us." Your struggle and frustrations are but a blip compared to eternity. I already said you need to be commended for considering the eternal consequences of your actions. While even five minutes can seem agonizingly long at times, a lifetime of suffering seems like looming doom. Sometimes our suffering will go away if we just give in to temptation. However, is it worth sacrificing eternal bliss for earthly release/relief that is but a fleeting moment compared to eternity? You, Rob, have an inner glory that will someday be revealed. I believe we've received a glimpse of that in this thread, and it's demonstrated by your desire to obey God rather than do your own will.

[brittZ]

Rob -

A couple scriptures just came to mind. It is actually about marriage not homosexuality. But I think it might pertain to your situation.

Matthew 19:10-12
The disciples said to him, "if this is the situation between a husband and wife, is it better not to marry."
Jesus replied, "Not everyone can accept this word (commands of marriage), but only those to whom it has been given. For some are eunuchs because they were born that way, others were made that way by men; and others have renounced marriage because of the kingdom of heaven. The ones who can accept this (commands of marriage) should accept it."

1Corinthians 7:6-7
I say this as a concession, not as a command. I wish that all men were as I am. But each man has his own gift from God, one has this gift, another has that.

I realize that a eunuch has nothing to do with being homosexual. However, the principle is the same. Marriage is not for everyone for a variety of reason including who they were born as, what the world has done to them, or simply their own choice not to be married. Either way some have the gift of singleness and can focus their attention on advancing the kingdom of Christ and others have the gift of marriage and can focus their attention on family. Both gifts come with wonderful possibilities and potential and painful, hardships which must be carried as the bearers cross.

I dont know if this helps, but it just came to me and I felt i should put it out there for you.

[Pathwalker]

Skipped this. Ooops. Sorry 'bout that.

Originally Posted by Oakback

WCRob,

If you had never identified yourself as homosexual, yet shared your struggles in a gender neutral way, I would have thought I was reading one of the old saints of the church, in many things you say.

Not sure what to say about that. I'm naturally shy, so I never know how to respond to compliments. Thank you!

Originally Posted by Oakback

People, who through choice or circumstance, choose to be single and cellbate, share your struggles, more than you know.

Reminds me of Jesus' teaching about eunuchs. Some are born as such, others are made that way, and others choose to be as such for the sake of the Kingdom. The thing is, it seems to me if you actively choose to be celibate, it implies that you have the strength and desire to shun any sort of intimate relationship with another. For someone to choose it, but not be able to control their lusts, doesn't make sense. Why choose that struggle?

I've often heard that celibacy is a gift. Otherwise there would have been no need for Paul to offer a way out to those who couldn't control their lusts. It seems Jesus Himself even indicated that opting to become a "eunuch" for the sake of the Kingdom was only for those who could accept what He was teaching.

It really isn't my desire to choose celibacy. I simply have no other option. It seems to be forced upon me.

See, this all comes back around to the same old thing......straight people are allowed to have something that gays aren't even given the option of having. Yes, straight people can CHOOSE to be celibate, if they feel it is a gift that has been conferred upon them. But for those of whom it is NOT a gift, they have an "out" that gay people simply don't have. Regardless of whether we WANT a loving relationship or not, it doesn't matter. We simply aren't allowed to have it.

Originally Posted by Oakback

I'm not promoting catholicism, (really and truely) but have you ever had a heart to heart with a good and Godly priest or sister? Believe me, they would benefit from it as much as you could. And you don't have to be Catholic.

No, but I don't think it would really matter if I spoke to a priest. Truly - and I don't mean this in any sort of offensive way - but what would be the point? I'd simply be told everything I pretty much have already heard. [img]http://******************/confused-smiley-17432.gif[/img]

And I'm not sure what they would actually learn from me. Not that I'm trying to be down on myself. I just tend to look at priests as knowing SO much more than I do.

[Pathwalker]

Originally Posted by sun

You don't need to answer my questions, especially after reading that you've never had a straight sexual experience for comparison and from which to provide an honest response.
However, I do want to comment with my opinion about what I've read. I've never really believed that most homosexuals are born that way, but I'm not really sure why I think that either. You said that you were shy, and had certain influences at a young age. It seems to me that there is a possibility that your heart learned to go pitter patter for males when you were very young, and thus maybe your libido was conditioned to respond to males that way, rather than to females. The fact that you said that you appreciated female companionship from 15 to 18, and were willing to get engaged and married shows that you wanted to at least try to have a straight relationship. But you were spurned, and then in conjunction with the previously conditioned patterns & urges for male sexual gratification, you quite trying to have a straight sexual relationship, and now you are celibate and admittedly lonely & unhappy.
I'm sorry that you were so shy when you were young. I remember being with male companions at that age and reading hot romance out aloud together and fantasizing about girls, or female teachers, along with viewing an occasional Playboy magazine. Maybe this was more normal male conditioning?

Maybe...? [img]http://******************/confused-smiley-17432.gif[/img]

Interesting you would mention that, though, because I was actually exposed to explicit, sexual pornography that my dad kept in the house when I was young. He even knew that I looked at it - being right there one time when I asked him what "something" was. But I should also note he really didn't encourage me to look at that stuff. He just didn't seem to be appalled by my viewing it.

Up until a certain age, I actually DID like girls. I even saw my "girlfriend" nude when I was in 3rd grade. I mean, imagine that happening today. We were back in the woods behind my house and we just revealed ourselves, and watched each other go to the bathroom. (Sorry if this all sounds perverted, but it's the truth.) Heck, in thinking about it, my aunt....my flesh and blood AUNT.....took me back in the woods one time when I was even younger......probably around 5 years old? I don't recall the exact age, but I was really young.....and she showed me her breasts and wanted me to show her my, well, you know. I should probably mention that she was only a few years older than me, so it's not like this was an adult family member. But what I'm getting at is that I was exposed to all this nude girl stuff when I was a kid. And I even tried having girlfriends, and making out with them, etc... So I can't really say that there was a total absence of certain influences as a child.

Originally Posted by sun

If you had experienced different pre-pubescent conditioning, maybe you wouldn't be experiencing some of the quandries that you have today. It's very difficult to determine.
So if my previous questions seemed loaded, they were loaded to a degree toward a person with both gay and straight sexual experiences, and how that impacts their current sexual orientation.
It doesn't apply in your case, except, you've raised some doubts in my mind about how you can believe that you have absolutely no choice about being gay.

Okay, why's that?

Originally Posted by sun

I heard you say that heterosexuals don't understand that you can't help what your sexual preference is.

More to the point, heterosexual Christians. I'm sure there are many heterosexuals that can relate to what I was saying.

Originally Posted by sun

But unless you have first sought out the help of a professional sex therapist (or sex surrogate?), how do you know that you couldn't participate in a healthy, normal and loving heterosexual relationship?

I'm sorry, but that sounds a little strange to me. The idea of using a sex surrogate in some sort of therapy is vile and repulsive to me. It is TOTALLY sinful in my opinion, and would NEVER happen. It's completely immoral. I don't NEED to have sex with a woman to know whether or not I would be able to participate in a relationship with one. That idea is just so far gone to me, I don't know what to say. I already KNOW that I don't want sex with a woman. I don't need to HAVE sex with a woman in order to verify how true that may or may not be.

Are you a guy? Let me ask you something. How would YOU know whether or not you would want sex with a man? You just know it either way, don't you? Do you REALLY think having sex with a man is going to tell you whether you want to or not? Is that something you would even CONSIDER doing in order to find out??

Originally Posted by sun

It's been so long since you had a sexual relationship of any kind (1992), maybe just giving it a shot could give you a world of new perspective?

Absolutely not. I STILL feel the same way today as I did 15 years ago - even 26 years ago when I first realized I was actually gay.

Originally Posted by sun

Please, don't be angry for my opinion.

Angry isn't the word. Perhaps a bit "put off" by some of what you said.

[Pathwalker]

Originally Posted by Blueberry

This has got to be one of the most level-headed and wise statements I've seen in this forum! You are to be commended for considering the eternal consequences of your actions.

The last verse in Romans 14 talks about the man who has doubts about whether or not he is to eat something. If he has doubts, it is a sin (even if there is nothing wrong with it). That verse concludes that "everything that does not come from faith is sin."[/i]

I want to interject something as it relates to that verse....

If a gay Christian honestly believes that the verses in the Bible referencing homosexual sex acts, commonly known as the "clobber passages", don't truly refer to what we know today as loving homosexual relationships - but rather believes that they reference only certain acts performed in the context of idolatry, prostitution or pedophilia - then are they acting in accordance with faith? I mean, if they truly don't accept the commonly held interpretation of those verses, are they sinning? After all, for them, it's coming from faith. They have no doubts about it.

Are they deluded? And if so, is it only on that particular subject? I mean, what if they completely accept all other orthodox doctrine and everything else that mainline evangelical churches teach?

Originally Posted by Blueberry

I pretty much agree with brittZ regarding the struggle you are facing, Rob, so I'm not going to rehash what has already been said. I just want to add a couple of thoughts to, hopefully, let you see things in a different light.

The loneliness you feel at times must be difficult to bear. You stated that at least heterosexuals have the option of marrying. Well, there are many straight people who yearn for marriage and love just as you do; however, because of varying circumstances (looks, physical ailments, etc.), they will never be considered marriageable material. They, too, yearn for love, closeness, comfort, and "physical release" from another individual; they, too, wish they could find life partners. So this isn't just a homosexual Christian problem. Many heterosexuals share your agony.

I hear what you're saying, but you're missing my point. There is a big difference between what you said, and a homosexual being allowed to have that option. See what I mean?

For all the varying circumstances that maybe prevent a heterosexual from marrying, they at least HAVE that option. It is freely available to them, and surely SOMEWHERE in the world if they were to ever find the right person that was compatible with them, they would FREELY be permitted to marry that person and enjoy the love and connection with that person. It would be GOOD in God's eyes. ACCEPTABLE in God's eyes. There would be no need for that heterosexual couple to feel any sort of condemnation or fear that what they were involved in - no matter how loving and intimate - was any sort of abomination to God.

Homosexuals don't have that option. Regardless of whether we found someone to be in love with or not.....even if it DIDN'T involve sex.....we would still be told it was an abomination. In essence, we are made to feel that our very EMOTIONS and ATTRACTIONS are vile, even if they are of the same nature and quality as those of heterosexual couples.

See what I'm saying now?

Even if a man and woman wanted to engage in countless years of fornication together outside of marriage, they STILL could get married. They'd repent of their sexual sin, receive forgiveness, and then be able to continue on in their marriage, having all the sex they wanted. However, if a man met another man and they both fell deeply in love with one another, and respected one another, and refrained from having sex with one another until such a time as they entered some sort of civil union (or marriage, in Massachusetts), and then made tender love to one another - THAT would be considered vulgar and an abomination.

So PLEASE don't compare this to a straight person who simply can't find another person in life to get married to. They at least have the option available to them, even if it means waiting many years for that right person to come along.

Originally Posted by Blueberry

I stumbled across Romans 8:18 tonight and immediately thought of you. "I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us." Your struggle and frustrations are but a blip compared to eternity. I already said you need to be commended for considering the eternal consequences of your actions. While even five minutes can seem agonizingly long at times, a lifetime of suffering seems like looming doom. Sometimes our suffering will go away if we just give in to temptation. However, is it worth sacrificing eternal bliss for earthly release/relief that is but a fleeting moment compared to eternity?

Believe me, I've thought about all this stuff. I really have. It doesn't honestly bring me any comfort - not when you beg and beg to be released from something and it doesn't happen.

No offense - truly - but it's really easy to say all that when you don't have to experience it for the rest of your life. You don't have to deal with the thoughts of NEVER having the human touch of another person in your life that you are in love with. I mean, I appreciate what you're saying....I recognize your good heart in telling me all that. But it doesn't make me feel any better. And that's not your fault. It just is how it is.

Originally Posted by Blueberry

You, Rob, have an inner glory that will someday be revealed. I believe we've received a glimpse of that in this thread, and it's demonstrated by your desire to obey God rather than do your own will.

I don't know what else to say. Sometimes if it weren't for my family, I'd just as soon get it all over with, and go on to be with God so I didn't have to deal with it anymore. Because to ME, it doesn't make sense. I don't know what glory will be revealed in me. I just don't understand what this would all be about. I can't imagine the reason for it.

I was going to type more, but I don't know what else to say.

[Pathwalker]

Originally Posted by brittZ

Rob -

A couple scriptures just came to mind. It is actually about marriage not homosexuality. But I think it might pertain to your situation.

Matthew 19:10-12
The disciples said to him, "if this is the situation between a husband and wife, is it better not to marry."
Jesus replied, "Not everyone can accept this word (commands of marriage), but only those to whom it has been given. For some are eunuchs because they were born that way, others were made that way by men; and others have renounced marriage because of the kingdom of heaven. The ones who can accept this (commands of marriage) should accept it."

1Corinthians 7:6-7
I say this as a concession, not as a command. I wish that all men were as I am. But each man has his own gift from God, one has this gift, another has that.

I realize that a eunuch has nothing to do with being homosexual. However, the principle is the same. Marriage is not for everyone for a variety of reason including who they were born as, what the world has done to them, or simply their own choice not to be married. Either way some have the gift of singleness and can focus their attention on advancing the kingdom of Christ and others have the gift of marriage and can focus their attention on family. Both gifts come with wonderful possibilities and potential and painful, hardships which must be carried as the bearers cross.

I dont know if this helps, but it just came to me and I felt i should put it out there for you.

I just want to note that I didn't even see your reference to eunuchs when I posted that response to Sun. I'll have to look into this whole subject later. You actually made me think about something, and now I have to....well, think about it.

[little_thirsty]

Hey WCRob!
Before anyone barks at me about this...THIS IS MY OPINION. I think if Jesus was back on earth today, he would ask you to join his crew. You are a very thoughtful, intelligent person. Maybe its cause I'm Methodist ha ha ha, but I think you need to love you for you whatever that may or maynot be. I struggle daily with issues in my life that may or may not be sins, thoughts that may or may not be bad......just keep your personal relationship with your God and know that you are LOVED because you are you. He wanted you here! Don't be so hard on yourself.