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hey, I'm a vegetarian. Why do they not have strictly vegan meals here at this school?
Guess what, I am vegetarian, because I don't believe in killing, anything. Therefore, I find it interesting that you choose this example.
I bring my own lunch, because I can't get what I need any other way. You can get your moment of silence in places other than the school. But that's not the point for certain types of christians, is it?
Are you saying christians are incapable of praying unless it's in a public school? Are they incapable of praying at home, on the bus? Why take up my tax supported time with prayer? This is something you can easily do at home, on the bus, on the school campus prior to school, etc.
Just have to push it on everyone else.
How would you feel about a bunch of kids pulling out their prayer rugs?
That might make a it a little bit different.
The tyranny of the majority is absolutely not the basis for democracy.
Last edited by chielgirl; 02-17-2008 at 04:16 PM..
Americans United for Separation of Church and State... Chipping Away at Our Democratic Republic
By Steven T. Voigt
Simply put, the Establishment Clause states that our nation can never have a national religion and citizens are free to worship God as they choose. Commenting on the Establishment Clause in 1859, Justice Joseph Story penned, "the right of a society or government to interfere in matters of religion, will hardly be contested by any persons, who believe that piety, religion, and morality are intimately connected with the well-being of the state, and indispensable to the administration of civil justice." 4 Likewise, Justice William Douglas wrote, "We are a religious people whose institutions presuppose a Supreme Being . . .. When the state encourages religious instruction or cooperates with religious authorities . . . it then respects the religious nature of our people and accommodates the public service to their spiritual needs." 5
When read properly, the Establishment Clause is limited in scope. Liberals who want their ideas made into untouchable law, however, choose to paste their own ideas onto the plain words of the clause. As with other parts of the Constitution, left-wingers like to read additional words like "wall of separation of church and state" into the First Amendment that are found nowhere in the text or even in the Founders' intent. In fact, the Establishment Clause of the Constitution permits - and our Founding Fathers considered it permissible and even proper - for religion and religious values to find a place in a just government.
4.Supreme Court Justice Joseph Story, A Familiar Exposition of the United States: Containing a Brief Commentary (New York, Harper & Brothers 1859).
5.Zorach v. Clauson, 343 U.S. 306 (1952).
Americans United for Separation of Church and State versus Prison Fellowship Ministry, Chipping Away at Our Democratic Republic - CWN (http://www.christianworldviewnetwork.com/article.php/250/Steven_Voigt - broken link)
Notice that Mr. Voigt uses one meaning for the word "religion" in the establishment clause to conform it to his personal wish for civil authority over religion, then switches to a different one for the free exercise clause.
"Simply put, the Establishment Clause states that our nation can never have a national religion and citizens are free to worship God as they choose."
Were he consistent, the second clause wouldn't prevent Congress from prohibiting anything but a national religion. Congress could outlaw any religion but the national religion.
No nation should be ruled any way by a religion especially one that supports intolerance and that half the followers are ignorant to the horrible things that has happen. I will fight to the end to keep this from happening Hopefully Obma wins this and fixs the Judicial branch so that republicans dont abuse that power in that branch
That really if you read all the changes they made is where they made most devastating impact to our constitutional rights. Luckily Obma is the likely candidate to win.
No one has the right to force there religion on others. IF you try to force ur religion or ur arguing for it you are by defeintion a fanatic.
Alot of chirstains (its mostly christains who force religion on others) need to get it through there thick head that we dont want it force on us, we want to convently learn about what u say stop saying everything as fact its annoying.
Relgion is the main reason for war and fanatics forcing it on others is just adding fuel to the fire.
Thank god that chiristain popularity is going down. (IM athiest)
Ok, I know this is an old post but since ...think kinda re-opened it, I guess I will give my take.
No offense but I think atheists are making way too much out of this. How hard would it be for the girl to just take a minute and sit and relax if everyone else wanted to pray silently to themselves?
Ok when I played HS football, before every game we said a prayer. I grew up in the Chicago area which is very Catholic, so everyone said a Catholic prayer before the game out loud. I am not Catholic so I could have done a couple of different things. I could have complained and taken my HS to court saying that they should not say the prayer because I am not Catholic, or bow my head and say a prayer to myself silently. I chose the latter. It wasn't that difficult.
I think people nowadays are hyper-sensitive and if you get your feelings hurt or feel uncomfortable then the world is just going to end. Give me a break. I am sure her dad had a lot more to do with it then she did. They weren't making her say a prayer, she could have just stayed quiet for a minute then went on about her day.
It's unlawful for public schools to promote prayer. Your God is the same exact God as the Catholic's, so of course it wouldn't seem as big of a deal to you (a fellow Christian of another denomination), but that doesn't make it alright.
A moment of silence would probably be constitutional as long as the dumb legislators would leave the word "prayer" out of the name of the legislative act and the text of the legislation.
But since laws like this are passed in order to get votes from constituents and not out of any sense of what is appropriate for legislatures to do, they can't do that.
This old post pretty much sums it up. A 15 second moment of silence, without any indication that students should be praying.
Those who think this is simply a way to sneak prayer in the backdoor, might be correct. However, as long as the word 'prayer' is never mentioned to a student, I don't think this is a concern. Taxpayer dollars go towards plenty of things, 15 seconds a day does not constitute a massive drain on state funds. Also, we ALL pay those taxpayer dollars, and don't have a choice. So stop bringing it up like you volunteered that money to help our schools out, and now it's being wasted. We all had to pay it or we would be thrown in jail. Politicians have convinced some of you that those are 'Your taxpayer dollars!' No, they belong to the state now. The state uses them freely, in whichever manner it sees fit. Your job as a taxpayer is to vote people into office who won't waste those dollars, and to cause a ruckus when those dollars are wasted. But stop referring to them as your taxpayer dollars. Got it? It's not your money, it belongs to the I.R.S., now and forever, it never was yours to begin with. If you don't like it, make less money.
Shame on everyone who thinks this is the end of the world, and props to all those who took a reasonable look at this small case and said, we have bigger fish to fry. If there is a place where prayer is forced into a public school, that is a worthy cause. Teachers CAN ENFORCE SILENCE IN THEIR CLASSROOMS. They did this frequently when I went to school. "Ok everyone, quiet down. . . . . . . . Thank you. Our next lesson..." This doesn't seem to bother anyone. Opening the day with 15 seconds of teacher enforced silence doesn't break any rule or hurt anyone's feelings. Infact, during most periods of teaching and testing, student silence is enforced. As long as the silence at the break of day had no mention of prayer or introspection of any sort, I can't see that it deviates from current school policies around the nation. Teacher says be quiet... So what?
Those who say that students can pray on their own time, are correct. The Bible says to pray constantly, and doesn't say anything about starting your school day with a forced prayer. A student can stop what they are doing, and pray whenever they want to.
It's unlawful for public schools to promote prayer. Your God is the same exact God as the Catholic's, so of course it wouldn't seem as big of a deal to you (a fellow Christian of another denomination), but that doesn't make it alright.
I know what you are saying Dieter, but it was a recited prayer that I did not know a word to. But anyway...
As I said, what is the harm of sitting quietly for a minute or whatever. Everyone says to practice tolerance, but what they mean is tolerance for their own views, and not the views of others.
Ok, I know this is an old post but since ...think kinda re-opened it, I guess I will give my take.
No offense but I think atheists are making way too much out of this. How hard would it be for the girl to just take a minute and sit and relax if everyone else wanted to pray silently to themselves?
Ok when I played HS football, before every game we said a prayer. I grew up in the Chicago area which is very Catholic, so everyone said a Catholic prayer before the game out loud. I am not Catholic so I could have done a couple of different things. I could have complained and taken my HS to court saying that they should not say the prayer because I am not Catholic, or bow my head and say a prayer to myself silently. I chose the latter. It wasn't that difficult.
I think people nowadays are hyper-sensitive and if you get your feelings hurt or feel uncomfortable then the world is just going to end. Give me a break. I am sure her dad had a lot more to do with it then she did. They weren't making her say a prayer, she could have just stayed quiet for a minute then went on about her day.
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