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I suspect it's for no other reason than you WANT it to be true.
Then why believe. What other single thing in your everyday life do you take as true when the lack of verifiable evidence AND reason and logic tells you that it isn't true?
then why ignore it?
...and say it as if 'faith' was something to be admired and applauded.
Ah! There it is. You just can't accept that this is all there is. You need there to be 'more than this'. You can't believe that we are nothing more than another species of animals that will live, die and vanish...just like every other living thing on the planet. It comes from that...'we are special' teaching that religion gives.
Wow. What a convoluted mess of a reply. Kinda preachy for an atheist ...dontcha think? Your last sentence doesn't take into account that I believe that animals have souls, spirits, non corporeal energy call it what you will. Humans are not special. Frankly, the animals are of purer heart and spirit than we are. A belief I came to from reading Edgar Rice Burroughs and firsthand interaction with many many different critters up close and personal. Animals show loyalty humans are incapable of, love as well. They are totally selfless, and will endure pain that would flatten a human simply for the sake of the aforementioend loyalty and love.
Of course I WANT what I believe to be true. And so I do. It works for me. It gives me a modicum of peace in a life of strife and fighting. So why would I choose to just give that up because there' nothing standing in front of me proving it's all beyond doubt? It's pretty simple. I'm just choosing to take a chance on something more, despite evidence to the contrary. It works for me...
Reading the Bile always confuses me. Starting when I was quite young I always wondered why God was ever present, in some sot of manifestation, through both the Old and New testaments but since those times has not made any such appearances for all to see. Oh, many people have claimed that God has spoken to them, various "miracles" have happened in the form of miraculous healings, coma patients pronounced brain dead waking up after decades as produce, myriad stories of miraculous happenings have come back from war with soldiers and such.
There are no such thing as miracles. There *are* things that we simply can't explain.
Far too many people, especially believers, seem to think that right now, right this very second, we are at the pinnacle of our knowledge. Everything that can be known is known, everything that can be discovered has been discovered. There is absolutely nothing new to be learned. Therefore, anything that remains unexplained *must* be the result of a god.
In reality, we *don't* know everything. Today's supposed "miracles" will undoubtedly have a rational and scientifically proven explanation sometime in the future.
Unfortunately, thanks to all of these primitive superstitions, few people can say, "I don't know" and instead use "God" to plug the gaps in our knowledge. That's why it's actually called The God of the Gaps. Because so many people have been inculcated and socially engineered, often from a young age, to believe in these ancient desert myths, they would rather believe that a wonderful and loving deity is lurking behind the scene arbitrarily handing out miracles to this person ... while completely ignoring that person.
In fact, they get so caught up in their belief in miracles that they fail to even consider why someone lying in the hospital bed next to them died of the very same illness. It is, perhaps, the biggest, most despicable display of hubris any human being is capable of showing. That an all-powerful, universe-creating God healed ME ... and not those people over there. Yes, God loved ME so much that he threw money on the ground for me to find, but was too busy solving other people's First World problems to do anything about, say, the Holocaust or help the people trapped in North Korea's famine-ridden hell.
People need to get over themselves.
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Originally Posted by NVplumber
But in the Bible God makes his presence all to known. Almost as if He's standing amidst the people for all to see.
Sorry, but you're deadbang wrong here. God did not make his presence known to all. The only people God cared about were Hebrews. Period. Througout the entire Old Testament, God only had contact with Hebrews -- which should send up red flags about the truthfulness of the Bible, but for some odd reason people are willing to overlook this rather important point.
Keep in mind that, for instance, the story of the Israelites' genocide against Canaan. God never sent anyone into the city in the hopes of converting even *some* of the Canaanites to the worship of Yahweh. Instead, Joshua, I believe, was simply ordered to murder every living thing within the city walls with no respect to age or gender. Even the animals were butchered. There was no soul-saving going on.
And this is true for the numerous cities that the Israelites slaughtered down to the last kitten. Well, except the cities where God permitted the Israelites to steal female virgins and force-marry them. Why was there no attempt at converting anyone? Why all the summary bloodshed? Because God didn't care about ANYONE but the Hebrews.
On top of that, aside from the parting of the Red Sea, God didn't even reveal himself to the Hebrews. That's why Moses always had to climb a mountain to have direct communication with God. No one *else* saw what went on up there which means Moses could have made everything up -- which he did. Yahweh worship was just a way to establish a cultural identity for Israel, given that the Israelites were actually a splinter group who left Canaan and even worshiped El, a Canaanite god. Yahweh is merely El renamed.
One reason why God commanded the Canaanites be slaughtered was due to the Canaanite's supposed penchant for human sacrifice. Except -- the Hebrews did the same thing (and where do you think they picked up *that* habit from, hmm?) We see this in stories like Abraham and Isaac, Jephthah and his daughter, and, most importantly, Jesus himself.
God never revealed himself to anyone but a tiny, insignificant desert tribe in a remote, sparsely populated stretch of desert. If God really wanted to make a splash, he could have showed up in China, India, Egypt, or Meso-America where thriving, highly populated civilizations existed. He didn't.
In fact, Yahweh was completely unknown to everyone except those who had contact with the Hebrews. In other words, God never went *anywhere* where there weren't Hebrews. Why do you suppose that was? Logically, it's because Yahweh is an invention of the Hebrews; without Hebrews around to tell people about their god, Yahweh can't exist. This is why God *couldn't* show up in India or China or anywhere else. There were no Hebrews there.
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Originally Posted by NVplumber
I always wondered why He doesn't still do that. The whole free will thing? Choose to believe and have Faith or not? In the OT free will was not so free. Such as commanding Joshua to butcher the city of Jericho to the last man ,woman and child. Even animals were not to be spared. There are other examples as well of the murderous journey of the Israeites. Was all this really commanded by God? Or by generals practicing scorched earth tactics?
It was a massive land-grab by the Israelites. That's all it was. Of course there was no *real* god involved. Yet this demonstrates the intrinsic danger of religion -- proof positive that for a good person to do an evil thing requires religion. Without a command from their supposedly "loving, kind, compassionate, just, and forgiving" God to go off and kill little children, infants, pregnant women, old ladies, and kittens (among others), the Israelites never would have been motivated to commit such atrocities.
To answer why he "still doesn't do that," well, it's because he doesn't exist. Yahweh is a fabrication invented by the Hebrews -- because every tribe had their own patron god. You might be believing in some *other* deity if the Israelites had been defeated. Thus, the only real reason why you believe in the god you do is because of the result of a few Bronze Age battles between rival desert tribes.
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Originally Posted by NVplumber
The inconsistencies of scripture are the biggest reason I don't make it central to my Faith.
There's that, at least.
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Originally Posted by NVplumber
Sans the Bible and belief in it as literal history there is very little "evidence" that there is a God. Nothing solid and able to be seen at any rate. Certainly not anything that could convince any atheists that they have it all wrong. So why does a guy like me choose to believe? Well, it's just a feeling.
This is a serious question: What specific attributes about this "feeling" you have lead you to believe that it *must* be the Christian/Hebrew God of the Bible? In fact, why would you even *want* it to be considering how immoral the doctrines of the Abrahamic religions actually are? Why not some other god? Why does it have to be a god at all?
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Originally Posted by NVplumber
Nothing that I can offer up as proof of Gods presence and power. The mental image I have of God doesn't conform to most standards as put forth by organized religion either. Created in His image? Does that mean we actually look like Him or that this is the image He chose, and so it is "His".
If the image you have of God doesn't conform to most standards put forth by organized religion, then why are you relying on organized religion to define who and what God is to you? By putting a name and a "face" to this "feeling" you're having, calling it Christ and God, you're endorsing and legitimizing all of the immorality that goes along with it. God is what he is -- and this god Yahweh is very well described in the Old Testament.
Coming up with your own version of God while still linking him with Christianity and the Bible is, to be blunt, nonsense. You either have your own vision of God or you have to accept what the Bible says about God. To say that, "Oh sure, I feel the God of the Bible, all right, except ... it isn't *really* the God of the Bible but rather my own definition and description" just doesn't wash.
It's a bit like driving around in a Honda while calling it a Ford because Fords somehow appeal to you.
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Originally Posted by NVplumber
Meh, I have a totally unconventional system of belief. It has me labeled as a "lukewarm" Christian by most mainstream devout believers, many who see me with outright contempt. It's my mixing of science and religion that does it. It seems many folks believe it's one or the other, can't have both. But the evidence of life on Earth millions of years before civilizations rose is just undeniable. I'm one of those who feels that needs to be addressed in ones relationship with God. Such ponderings keep my mind quite occupied when I am thinking about my Faith in a higher power. The Earth had been "destroyed" far before the Biblical flood.
The entire reason why you're having conflicts like the ones you've described is because, if there IS a higher power, it ain't the God of the Bible or any of these other man-made religions. The higher power you seem to be feeling is better than any of these primitive Biblical notions of God. The deity in the Bible is a small, petty thing who even admits that he gets jealous when people worship anyone but him.
No doubt *your* god is much, much better than that. Your god wouldn't create a universe that is apprently deliberately designed to deceive you into believing in things like the Big Bang and evolution when, "obviously," the universe was magically created by a god and humans were magically created out of a pile of dirt and a rib. Right?
If you weren't trying to fit an elephant into a coffee can, as you are doing when you try to fit your God into one of these man-made religions, these kinds of conflicts wouldn't exist.
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Originally Posted by NVplumber
I'm just a guy who chooses to have Faith and it gives me Hope in feeling there is something more to all this. That we aren't fighting to get through our lives for no more than a cold hole 6x6 when it's over.
Why does there need to be a god for there to be an afterlife? I can be just as hopeful that there's more to all of this as an atheist as any believer can. In fact, I'm even more hopeful because my afterlife doesn't involve living on bended knee in eternal bondage to a jealous, wrathful, perpetually angry authoritarian god.
Whether or not there's an afterlife is completely independent from whether or not any gods exist. That's why one can actually be an atheist and still believe in life after death. I get the fact that you probably want validation, some kind of corroboration with an outside source that reinforces your want of an afterlife. Who wouldn't want that? But relying on organized religion and fanciful stories written by Hebrews for Hebrews isn't the answer.
The biggest test of faith is believing in something when there really *isn't* any corroboration by holy books, preachers, churches, and scriptures.
"Everything is natural. everything. a rock and a cell. So if I ask you to classify the two systems and you answer 'natural", now what?"
I said one is living the other is not and we ought to agree. I asked why you were even asking the question. I'm making nothing up. You are fiddling it. I agree I made a guess (based on your previous posting of the woo end of science) as to why you were asking. If I'm guessing wrong, you tell me why you are asking questions about simple things as though they were somehow Very Deep.
Here we go, denial, "lmao" instead of anything pertinent, personals. Raffs, let's go do something useful?
Yeah, he started it and you make up that I did. good job there.
go read your post again ...
You made up that I want god in the conclusion. So again, you twisted what I said and made stuff up that I never meant, implied, or inferred. You added it in all by yourself.
secondly, I pointed out that you are describing how the universe works based on your belief system. I stated that you pushing the answer of "natural" as the best descriptor of the biosphere's interactions is intellectually dishonest, illogical, and irrational. To keep pushing that as an answer to deceive people.
Because of your belief system; You will not make the measurement. That when you compare the biosphere to a rock (anything we classify as non life) or a cell, it matches best to things we classify as life.
you will not admit, due to your belief system, that my claim makes better predictions then yours so its more valid.
Of course I WANT what I believe to be true. And so I do. It works for me. It gives me a modicum of peace in a life of strife and fighting. So why would I choose to just give that up because there' nothing standing in front of me proving it's all beyond doubt?.
Why? ...because my friend THAT is what you do a hundred times a day with hundreds of other supernatural entities.
You don't believe in Odin because there is nothing standing in front of you proving it's all beyond doubt - and reason, logic and lack of verifiable evidence tell you that Odin doesn't exist .
You don't believe in leprechauns because there is nothing standing in front of you proving it's all beyond doubt - and reason, logic and lack of verifiable evidence tell you that leprechauns don't exist.
You don't believe in mermaids, goblins, Zeus, Shiva, Ganesh or a thousand other gods because there is nothing standing in front of you proving it's all beyond doubt - and reason, logic and lack of verifiable evidence tells you that mermaids, goblins, Zeus, Shiva, Ganesh or a thousand other gods don't exist
...and yet, with one particular god, the one that you were brought up with, the one that is the predominate one in the country, culture and society that you were born into, the one you desperately WANT to exist - even though there is nothing standing in front of you proving it's all beyond doubt - and reason, logic and lack of verifiable evidence tell you that it doesn't exist - you believe that it does!
Now what you have to ask yourself is not - 'do I feel lucky' but - why do I employ reason, logic, common sense and the lack of verifiable evidence to dismiss a thousand other supernatural entities yet when it comes to the supernatural entity that I want to be true, I take all that reason, logic, common sense and lack of verifiable evidence that I use to dismiss a thousand other supernatural entities and throw it out of the window, preferring instead to rely on 'faith', something that you would never, ever EVER rely on in any other aspect of your life.
I wanted to write tangible evidence, but it wouldnt fit.
There seems to be some derision here regarding not believing unless evidence is provided for God, which is silly if you think about it. What other things in life do you believe in without evidence?
And by tangible I dont mean subjective feelings. The flowers are beautiful, the mountains are beautiful, my child loves me, and so on. Real stuff, even if we cant see it physically. We cant see gravity, but we can see its effects every single time we put it to the test. Not some, not all, every time.
Believers often say, God wants you to have faith. But believing by faith is merely believing without evidence, so we circle back to my question. Why are we expected to believe without evidence?
This all presupposes a sort of God that cares whether we believe in it . For a deist or pantheist type of god, the question would be moot. Such a God did what it did, and doesnt care if you know it did what it did, or whether you believe in it. But what of the God who wants, expects, and even in some cases demands that you believe in it? Why the insistence upon belief without proof?
Dont say " God wants us to have faith", because again, you simply answer my question of why God wants us to believe without evidence by responding "because God wants us to believe without evidence".
Well, I'm not the most religious person you'll meet, but I do believe in God and I do say prayers of gratitude every night. As somewhat of a "novice" in these things, I'm kinda glad it's the way it is. If there was real evidence of God, that would necessarily make him of this world. You could see Him and touch Him like any other person or thing. That would make Him lesser in my mind. If you take away the ethereal all-seeing, all-knowing aspects of God, He just wouldn't be God anymore. Personally, I like having to have faith in Him. I like thinking that He can see my misdeeds or my good deeds for that matter. I am comforted by my belief in Him and I don't need to meet him to know that he's there.
Well, I'm not the most religious person you'll meet, but I do believe in God and I do say prayers of gratitude every night. As somewhat of a "novice" in these things, I'm kinda glad it's the way it is. If there was real evidence of God, that would necessarily make him of this world. You could see Him and touch Him like any other person or thing. That would make Him lesser in my mind. If you take away the ethereal all-seeing, all-knowing aspects of God, He just wouldn't be God anymore. Personally, I like having to have faith in Him. I like thinking that He can see my misdeeds or my good deeds for that matter. I am comforted by my belief in Him and I don't need to meet him to know that he's there.
Your god could easily make it's presence known - without having to come and have a beer with us.
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Personally, I like having to have faith in Him
Why? What other things in your everyday life do you believe are true on 'faith'? I really don't get it. All you theists are the same! You see this 'faith' thing as something wonderful; something that we should look up to and applaud. In reality, it is the dumbest thing ever to rely on...and you know that because there is not one other single instance in your everyday life where you rely on 'faith'...not one! In every single successful confidence trick in the history of mankind, it has been 'faith' that has made it successful.
If a guy in a smart suit knocked your door and asked you for $1000 and told you that he was going to invest it and that by next Friday, you'll get $1500 back, would you have faith that he would do that? Of course you wouldn't! You would ask him for verifiable evidence that the investment was sound; you would check it; you would examine it in great detail and if you found that there was no verifiable evidence that the investment was sound, you wouldn't pay. You certainly wouldn't rely on 'faith'. Right
So why then, regarding your god belief, do you invest in it, even though there is no verifiable evidence that the investment is sound. Why do you rely on 'faith' in this one single matter and in no other?
You didn't read my post and I have seen your claims and am not interested in backdoor validations. It simply isn' important o me.
....
Damn. I think thi hrad just died.
There ya go. you are so shallow that you repeatedly expose your true intentions. The thread is about what the evidence shows. Not what you want to believe.
You aint interested in describing the system we are in to the best of our ability. You are not interested in it because of your belief. Just like a theist is not interested in describing it either.
Science, in this case Earth science, tries to describe the earth so that we have a better understanding of its processes. Understanding those processes then offers us the ability to address any event or set of events more efficiently.
Many scientists treat the earth as life. the feedback back loops present in earth's system, taken as a whole (although I know you cant see past your nose) make those feedback loops match things we classify as life and do not match those things we classify as non life as well.
Earth science is also showing that we are the biosphere and the biosphere is us. Just like a blade of grass is the lawn and the lawn is the grass.
Earth science had the side effect of, not only, helping us predict evolution, climate change, ad effects of humans on the planet but it also predicts human emotional connects to the system around them. We are learning about the system we are in. You calling woo is just silly at this point.
you aint interested in finding out the truth. just like any fundy/milli mental. The evidence clearly points to a larger more complex system. What you believe is weird.
Your statement "... back door into a god..." that does not exists shows exactly how scared, shallow, and warped you world view is. Your "back door" validation shows that you are guided by your belief.
You asked why that is wrong. Its wrong because you are not interested in finding out the truth. You are only interested in pushing your belief system. You are wrong because you let your belief in god (no god here) decide how you will describe how the universe works.
How are you any different then other people that describe the universe based on a belief and not empirical evidence?
How are you any different when you deny empirical evidence that doesn't fit your belief in god (here: no god, but its the same thing).
Your god could easily make it's presence known - without having to come and have a beer with us.
Why? What other things in your everyday life do you believe are true on 'faith'? I really don't get it. All you theists are the same! You see this 'faith' thing as something wonderful; something that we should look up to and applaud. In reality, it is the dumbest thing ever to rely on...and you know that because there is not one other single instance in your everyday life where you rely on 'faith'...not one! In every single successful confidence trick in the history of mankind, it has been 'faith' that has made it successful.
If a guy in a smart suit knocked your door and asked you for $1000 and told you that he was going to invest it and that by next Friday, you'll get $1500 back, would you have faith that he would do that? Of course you wouldn't! You would ask him for verifiable evidence that the investment was sound; you would check it; you would examine it in great detail and if you found that there was no verifiable evidence that the investment was sound, you wouldn't pay. You certainly wouldn't rely on 'faith'. Right
So why then, regarding your god belief, do you invest in it, even though there is no verifiable evidence that the investment is sound. Why do you rely on 'faith' in this one single matter and in no other?
is he any different then you?
You have blind faith that tells you how you will describe the events around you regardless of the facts too.
You have blind faith that tells you how you will describe the events around you regardless of the facts too.
Damn! There's that grunting noise again!!!
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Deliberate or Freudian slip??
Kinda preachy for an atheist ...dontcha think? Your last sentence doesn't take into account that I believe that animals have souls, spirits, non corporeal energy call it what you will. Humans are not special. Frankly, the animals are of purer heart and spirit than we are. A belief I came to from reading Edgar Rice Burroughs and firsthand interaction with many many different critters up close and personal. Animals show loyalty humans are incapable of, love as well. They are totally selfless, and will endure pain that would flatten a human simply for the sake of the aforementioend loyalty and love.
