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Speaking from the other side of the void (so to speak), as a believing Christian, I find that my opinions on all matters are often discounted because I am "one of those...". I have experienced situations where people were greatly interested in my input on many matters until they found out I'm a Christian, beyond which point my opinion didn't count.
That is unfortunate. Valid input from anyone, believer or no, should be given consideration. I trust that your input did not use Christianity as a source, authority and validation of your input however, as that would certainly be a good reason to disregard them.
I have to admit that I will often entertain speculations until I find they are being used to wangle the 'god' idea into the picture. I do try to make allowances and will continue the discussion while saying that I would not use the 'god' label. When the insistence is that the 'god' label should be used because it is all so big and wonderful, then i do tend to think that I am being sold Biblegod through a sort of rhetorical Trojan Horse virus.
The essential fallacy is thinking there is something outside reality itself that must be proved. There is no such thing as "the way it would work if there was no such deity at all." NOTHING would work in any way shape or form without God as the substrate. You admittedly and repeatedly have shown yourself unable to understand this . . . even when Gaylenwoof laid it out for you in atheistic terms.
Finis is finis. While pausing only to observe that I am not fooled by this attempt to pretend that Gaylenwoof agreed with your argument even though you took his concession that it was a valid point of discussion as near agreement with you, I repeat that I am no longer debating this with you.
Not because I am miffed with you, not because I don't respect your intelligence and erudition and certainly not because I consider myself beaten, but because the argument was going nowhere.
After lengthy posting I found myself repeatedly at the same point, with you insistence on this unsubstantiated 'god' concept as a given which needed to be disproved, and your refusal to accept that it is a fallacious logical position.
I am watching the discussion with Gaylenwoof with interest. Perhaps he can get further with it. I can't stop you commenting on my posts and I may well comment on yours, but debate between us is off.
I have to admit that I will often entertain speculations until I find they are being used to wangle the 'god' idea into the picture.
No need to respond, finis . . . but that is called intransigence and bias.
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I do try to make allowances and will continue the discussion while saying that I would not use the 'god' label. When the insistence is that the 'god' label should be used because it is all so big and wonderful, then i do tend to think that I am being sold Biblegod through a sort of rhetorical Trojan Horse virus.
Your fixation on a particular set of beliefs ABOUT God (I would say obsession even) is what restricts your freeing up the intellectual resources and reasoning processes to grasp what is really being proposed. I am encouraged that you are following Gaylenwoof's explications. It seems that the automatic intellectual shutters are not closed to HIS presentations of the issues . . . which is excellent. His understanding of the deeper philosophical issues is almost identical to mine except for the choice of preferred "brute fact." I remain optimistic that I can convert him. He is so close.
I've not been a church goer, or a bible reader, or a follower of any religion for the past 40 + years, yet it seems apparent to me that there is an all pervasive intelligent presence permeataing the universe. Many, or even most of my prayers addressed to this intelligent presence have produced noticable benefits again and again, time after time.
Yes, if I follow your train of thought correctly. I make allowances for the limits of human perception.
I agree. 'god' of some sort is a possibility, though only one out of many. In fact the limits of human perception are (arguably) the only reason why 'god' is the possibility booted around so much.
The personal gods of man -made religions are pretty much out of the picture.
A possible 'god' is not a 'he'. It is an It. I can assure you that, all my life I have been shown parts of this supposed god (who now looks very much like Biblegod) and it turns out to be down to our limited perception more than anything else. The result is that there is no real evidence that what is going on in the universe is anything we should (IMV) call 'god'.
I caught a very interesting TV programme on reality. In a popular way, it encapsulated the current thoughts on 'reality'. I must say I was expecting, every time we came up against something mysterious or puzzling, someone would mention 'god' but, rather thankfully, nobody did.
Perhaps Hawking is right and God Is Not Neccer-sarry.
The most shocking thing was the discovery that observing a proton diverging into two entities stops it happening. This has been used to throw doubt on science (observing the test alters it) but it didn't seem to be that. Rather comfortingly, this illusion of matter has reality in that it is reliably predictable and the indeterminacy only relates to atomic activity. The implication is that other realities are splitting off into other time lines. But that doesn't have anything to do with us.
What wasn't mentioned (since they didn't mention 'god') was Einstein's remark 'You really think the moon stops existing when we don't look at it?' and Bohr responding 'How do you know it doesn't?'
That would normally be a fallacy of introducing logical entities without good reason. But the burden of proof is met. There IS good reason to suppose that indeterminacy is real. I don't see that it extends to the moon winking out if no -one is looking at it, just a moon we don't see diverging into another dimension every nanosecond.
But we do have the proton NOT diverging every time we take a peek. Or rather, it doesn't diverge every time we don't take a peek. And, as Linus said, 'The theological implications alone are staggering.'
You may have heard the conundrum about whether a tree is there if no -one is around to observe it. Or the moon. The god - believer answers: 'There IS always someone around to observe it - God.' The moon is always there (arguably) whether we observe it or not, because god (or God) is always there observing it.
But, if that were the case, there would always be an observer (god) of the proton, so it would never diverge. Indeterminacy argues that the only observer of a diverging particle is us. There is no other observing entity.
So, (I just had to get that idea down) while there are some arguments for 'god' (first cause, even of powered nothingness - zones of comfort) there seems for the first time some argument which disproves any constant cosmic observing mind, whether sortagod or any of the personal gods.
This is very interesting. The experiments regarding a proton were first made aware to myself a few years ago in beam barrier experiments executed in Berkley CA. A camera was used and the results were unchanged.
Of course its recognized that these findings are specific to particles of light. We know, that motion of light is constant. Behavior in proton is not relative and therefore ill-capable in conclusive analogy directed at relative matter including our perception and subsequent relative participation.
I don't see the tree , moon ..self observance being quantifiable roads to discovery in hopeful understanding. We are certainly not constant in nature, either is a tree or the moon.
The arrival of speculation regarding a necessary observance to behavior of a proton , suggesting a non-observance in ultimate supremacy to creation..
Denys a supremacy to origin or cause to relativity including our one constant.
I'm sure that you are aware that trouble comes when quantum states get entangled over spatial regions and observations are made simultaneously.
We are afflicted by.....quantum fuzziness. Point being, we are not all-together here, in an absolute sense, relative to a suggested supremacy .
Therefore, cross reference in these matters is in opinion..illogical.
As well, with regards to gravity being the only force required in construction of a universe, superpartner activity at sub-nuclear state re unification is very close in determination aiding a long awaited and still un-reachable formal definition of...gravity.
With above inference to particle involvement, thundering guess work in
a "formal description" to all of creation in particular the nature of origin is.....rather confusing or easily a wild remark. Wild in mans self aknowledged acceptance of being entirely without a "formal description "
of gravity alone !
Do you agree...?
With regards to interesting comment in mans perception. I must say that I find the exact opposite. My perception mediated through focus .
Together with observance we allow serious wonder, in the factual evidence of
focus abound, focus within, focus not without, focus in origin..... to all.
focus would then be... without limit in extension.... a focus in Christianity.
This is very interesting. The experiments regarding a proton were first made aware to myself a few years ago in beam barrier experiments executed in Berkley CA. A camera was used and the results were unchanged.
Of course its recognized that these findings are specific to particles of light. We know, that motion of light is constant. Behavior in proton is not relative and therefore ill-capable in conclusive analogy directed at relative matter including our perception and subsequent relative participation.
I don't see the tree , moon ..self observance being quantifiable roads to discovery in hopeful understanding. We are certainly not constant in nature, either is a tree or the moon.
The arrival of speculation regarding a necessary observance to behavior of a proton , suggesting a non-observance in ultimate supremacy to creation..
Denys a supremacy to origin or cause to relativity including our one constant.
I'm sure that you are aware that trouble comes when quantum states get entangled over spatial regions and observations are made simultaneously.
We are afflicted by.....quantum fuzziness. Point being, we are not all-together here, in an absolute sense, relative to a suggested supremacy .
Therefore, cross reference in these matters is in opinion..illogical.
As well, with regards to gravity being the only force required in construction of a universe, superpartner activity at sub-nuclear state re unification is very close in determination aiding a long awaited and still un-reachable formal definition of...gravity.
With above inference to particle involvement, thundering guess work in
a "formal description" to all of creation in particular the nature of origin is.....rather confusing or easily a wild remark. Wild in mans self aknowledged acceptance of being entirely without a "formal description "
of gravity alone !
Do you agree...?
I have to confess, I don't think I even follow. I cannot say whether this is so erudite that it goes over my head or such jargon that it is meaningless. I must leave it to experts of which, I have to say, I am not one.
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With regards to interesting comment in mans perception. I must say that I find the exact opposite. My perception mediated through focus .
Together with observance we allow serious wonder, in the factual evidence of
focus abound, focus within, focus not without, focus in origin..... to all.
focus would then be... without limit in extension.... a focus in Christianity.
I don't quite follow here, but I have to say that man's perception is faulty and prone to error. Proven scientific and historical fact, that is. Application of scientific method and method can check and discover and obviate many of these misperceptions which is why it is the only valid method of discovering fact.
I also don't follow what Christianity has to do with it. Of course, applying the SM (for short) to that subject as well as any other, yes.
Before I believed anything, I had a laundry list of questions I would ask everytime I was confronted with the name Jesus or anything to do with the Bible. I would ask anything from: Why arent the dinosours in the bible? to How can a good God, send people to Hell?...
Even though we can only answer so many questions before the individual has to take it upon themselves to build a relationship with the Lord. I feel that it would be good idea to start a thread that will try to answer some of those questions.
This thread is For those who are seeking the truth or that just would like to know what Christians have to say about this or that...
The best way to get answers are to ask questions...
What are the biggest problems/questions people have about Christianity?
Well, here's some of the questions I have asked and not gotten answers to, but it doesn't mean that I don't believe. I am a Christian and I always will be, but there are some pretty hard-hitting questions that no one can answer, that's for sure.
Why do some people suffer more than others?
Why are some people so blessed with money/fame/fortune while the rest of us aren't?
Why do children have to die?
Why are there child molesters and why are people like this allowed to live?
Why doesn't God just prove Himself to us so there will be no questions?
How come God talked to people in the OT and He doesn't now?
Why does the Bible contradict itself?
Why can't people agree on what the Bible says?
Why is everyone (most Christians) deceived into thinking God is going to burn unbelievers for all of eternity?
Why can't we all just get along?
Why why why? I could go on but I'll stop there. I think it's pretty clear that NO ONE has the answers to these questions. OH but there are fundamentalists who THINK they have all the answers, like vague "because God's ways are not our ways" kind of thing.....that's bull crap.
I want answers, don't you? I want concrete evidence that there is a God, I want to know all the answers to life's questions right now. I don't want to wait until I'm dead cause then I can't tell anyone else. I want to know now!! Dagnabbit!! Yes yes yes, I know, it's about "faith" and if you don't believe in Jesus then you're going to that God forsaken place that fundamentalists like to preach about.....I don't buy it for one minute.
My God is an awesome God and He would never do any such thing to his creation. Somewhere along the line things went horribly wrong, either by accident or by design but if you study it out you will find that that eternal torture chamber is actually a pagan belief, and that God has a plan to save ALL mankind eventually. The Bible has been tampered with beyond belief, and there are many words that have been mistranslated.
God is a good God and He loves us all and not one single solitary soul will be lost forever. Praise God!! All who are "evil" by the world's standards will be reformed and refined to be in the presence of our Holy God. We have so much to look forward to so if this life is treating you badly just look forward to a better life, a much better life, in the future and hold onto that hope because it's true, I know it. God bless you all, and love God and each other!!
What are the biggest problems/questions people have about Christianity?
Well, here's some of the questions I have asked and not gotten answers to, but it doesn't mean that I don't believe. I am a Christian and I always will be, but there are some pretty hard-hitting questions that no one can answer, that's for sure.
Why do some people suffer more than others?
Why are some people so blessed with money/fame/fortune while the rest of us aren't?
Why do children have to die?
Why are there child molesters and why are people like this allowed to live?
Why doesn't God just prove Himself to us so there will be no questions?
How come God talked to people in the OT and He doesn't now?
Why does the Bible contradict itself?
Why can't people agree on what the Bible says?
Why is everyone (most Christians) deceived into thinking God is going to burn unbelievers for all of eternity?
Why can't we all just get along?
Why why why? I could go on but I'll stop there. I think it's pretty clear that NO ONE has the answers to these questions. OH but there are fundamentalists who THINK they have all the answers, like vague "because God's ways are not our ways" kind of thing.....that's bull crap.
I want answers, don't you? I want concrete evidence that there is a God, I want to know all the answers to life's questions right now. I don't want to wait until I'm dead cause then I can't tell anyone else. I want to know now!! Dagnabbit!! Yes yes yes, I know, it's about "faith" and if you don't believe in Jesus then you're going to that God forsaken place that fundamentalists like to preach about.....I don't buy it for one minute.
My God is an awesome God and He would never do any such thing to his creation. Somewhere along the line things went horribly wrong, either by accident or by design but if you study it out you will find that that eternal torture chamber is actually a pagan belief, and that God has a plan to save ALL mankind eventually. The Bible has been tampered with beyond belief, and there are many words that have been mistranslated.
God is a good God and He loves us all and not one single solitary soul will be lost forever. Praise God!! All who are "evil" by the world's standards will be reformed and refined to be in the presence of our Holy God. We have so much to look forward to so if this life is treating you badly just look forward to a better life, a much better life, in the future and hold onto that hope because it's true, I know it. God bless you all, and love God and each other!!
Why do some people suffer more than others?
If people did not suffer, no one could come to learn, that it is an opportunity to help people in pain. In this opportunity, we deny ourselves extending charity, which gives birth to...charity. We learn through the mother of all virtue charity, a detachment from self which affords a refreshment in spirit... bereft of self distraction of our own grief, including self pity.
Why are some people so blessed with money/fame/fortune while the rest of us aren't?
People are not necessarily blessed with money, fame ect. The most interesting aspect of this ability in rich's is the more money or fame people have, the more they may want to use it to distract themselves from...their mortality . Without the distraction of fame, boats , cars, we are left with ...ourselves, which allows for growth in true inner peace. Stillness in spirit, giving way to joy.
Why do children have to die?
This would be a truly heartbreaking experience, heartbreaking in the sharing that was and will not be in this life. Sad in the tenderness of innocence in full hope of a life of gladness. We all must come to this end. It is part of the changing growing life, that the great Creator has included in the sanctification of all. We only bow our heads in submission to accept, what we sometimes cannot change. Fortitude ... courage in pain and affliction is in need and most ready in
carefully comprehended ...Prayer of Quiet.
Why are there child molesters and why are people like this allowed to live?
My hope is that one day, deranged individuals will be extinct. Know that this is not paradise and to believe it is, if only for a day is a grave error. The only complete answer as to why anyone lives, including these mental case's ...is known by the great Creator. Its best if possible not to try, and climb inside the sick mind. There is nothing to relate with or learn, unless you have to for professional reasons.
Why doesn't God just prove Himself to us so there will be no questions?
Because if he did, you would see the Creator, the soul in a way has nothing to do with the outward senses, the supernatural state of the soul no matter how hard we try , we cannot reach it for ourselves. It is a state in which the Lord gives peace through his presence in prayer. The great Creator is interested in this form of experience. It is best for us, the faculties are stilled.
How come God talked to people in the OT and He doesn't now?
I try not to worry about things like that...
Why does the Bible contradict itself?
This is a good question , there are experts regarding the Bible who are Christian and as well argue about many aspects of the Bible. I do not want to be an expert of the Bible, and as far as people who challenge others or have remarks...the best thing to do is ask an expert.
On a good note, the theme in the bible is very clear. Easy to understand and I read material which deals with the application of Christianity. The life. Catholicism , Nihil Obstat.
Why can't people agree on what the Bible says?
I hope above answer helps in this question. Although there are a few other issues which emerge out of this...however it is not generally part of what I think your asking about. Don't forget every bodys different and thats good for perspective .
Why is everyone (most Christians) deceived into thinking God is going to burn unbelievers for all of eternity?
Many people feel they are being unjustly punished in life and others are getting a free pass. Of course thats absurd life has difficult moments for everyone. Mention of punishment any where in a belief system for the envious is all too tempting. It is ill-will a manifestation of jealousy.
Why can't we all just get along?
We can!
Why why why? I could go on but I'll stop there. I think it's pretty clear that NO ONE has the answers to these questions. OH but there are fundamentalists who THINK they have all the answers, like vague "because God's ways are not our ways" kind of thing.....that's bull crap.?
I get angry too. Some time ago, I got so angry with fate that I lost my voice for two days or so from hollering. It happened at least 5 times over the course of 2 years. I never closed my eyes to the day juring this without attempting to make some kind of delirious mental calm.
Now its clear to myself, that difficult sufferings are part of life, even the ones yet to come. There is a
freedom in the humility of our existence. Simple yet intellectually wise.
What are the biggest problems/questions people have about Christianity?
Well, here's some of the questions I have asked and not gotten answers to, but it doesn't mean that I don't believe. I am a Christian and I always will be, but there are some pretty hard-hitting questions that no one can answer, that's for sure.....!
Blue has answered some of these adequately but here are a few that require another view.
children dying and child molesters.
Blue My hope is that one day, deranged individuals will be extinct. Know that this is not paradise and to believe it is, if only for a day is a grave error. The only complete answer as to why anyone lives, including these mental case's ...is known by the great Creator. Its best if possible not to try, and climb inside the sick mind. There is nothing to relate with or learn, unless you have to for professional reasons.
Arq. These are probably the best answers we can expect. To those who question, they are totally inadequate. I know this because those who doubt a personal god say that this inadequate 'God knows what he is doing. Just accept that' response does more to make them doubt than almost anything else.
Ilene How come God talked to people in the OT and He doesn't now?
Blue I try not to worry about things like that...
Arq Best option for those who want to keep valid doubts at bay.
Ilene Why does the Bible contradict itself?
Blue This is a good question , there are experts regarding the Bible who are Christian and as well argue about many aspects of the Bible. I do not want to be an expert of the Bible, and as far as people who challenge others or have remarks...the best thing to do is ask an expert.
On a good note, the theme in the bible is very clear. Easy to understand and I read material which deals with the application of Christianity. The life. Catholicism , Nihil Obstat.
Favourite subject of mine.
The answer above is 'don't worry about that, just have faith is essential teachings'. And as to asking an expert - get a second opinion.
I can give you another answer - take it or leave it.
The OT is a collection of myths about origins. The contradictions are only to be expected. Same with the more historical parts. It is prone to some understandable errors.
The NT is contradictory because the basic story was worked on separately by the evangelists who all had their own (and often contradictory) points to make. This answers you question and I can provide supportive evidence. It follows that it completely discredits the claims of Christianity
Ilene Why can't people agree on what the Bible says?
Blue I hope above answer helps in this question. Although there are a few other issues which emerge out of this...however it is not generally part of what I think your asking about. Don't forget every bodys different and thats good for perspective .
The above answer (don't question - just have faith) will not satisfy the genuine enquirer. Remember, everybody's different. But God isn't. So the answer would be that eveybody disagrees because there is no guidance coming from any god.
So often in the deconversion stories we hear of the dissatisfaction upon hearing the slick answers which don't answer so much as suggest that you don't ask.
Keep asking until you get some satisfactory answers. Hint: you will never get them from theist apologetics.
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 01-20-2011 at 08:26 AM..
Reason: Got locked out while tidying up
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