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As a Christian: I affirm that atheists can be, and are, moral, though, of course, some aren't (the same can be said, unfortunately, for some Christians); but I also find your quote revealing- you didn't want to act in a particular manner because you felt nice today (as opposed to knowing that , absolutely, it is appropriate to be nice). Seems to me that this is always going to be the issue relative to behavior with those who don't believe in absolutes. I understand why you criticize Christians for immoral behavior, when appropriate, because we have a standard by which we can be measured. (Scripture, incidentally, is full of criticism of Christians who exhibit sub-Christian morality). I am less certain why atheists behave in a consistently moral fashion. Don't get me wrong, I am thankful for moral atheists, and I know they exist. However, ethics based on consesus, or feeling, no matter how "good" they are, will always be arbitrary. Still, thank you for being ethical, whatever your motivation.
There is nothing that motivates me to be nice. I just have always been a nice person. I treat people the way I would want them to treat me. I used to think that there are moral absolutes, but now I don't think so. It's more of a situational thing. For example, most people, regardless of religion/lack of religion, will tell you that murder is wrong. Almost everybody would agree on that, however, I believe in certain situations, there are exceptions. For example, I support Second Amendment rights, and I prefer to call it right to self defense rather than right to gun ownership. I feel like if your life is threatened, you are in the right by defending yourself however you can, even if that means killing the attacker. In that situation, I would say using your weapon was the best decision, because reasoning with people who are actually determined to kill does nothing. That's why I don't understand why people want stricter gun laws when people get robbed, shot, and murdered every day. Sure, guns can kill, but in the right situation, they benefit the person carrying. In addition, most people don't own them for the intent to harm anybody.
The power and love of God to Israel are here made the ground and reason of a number of cautions and serious warnings; and although there is much reference to their national covenant, yet all may be applied to those who live under the gospel. What are laws made for but to be observed and obeyed? Our obedience as individuals cannot merit salvation; but it is the only evidence that we are partakers of the gift of God, which is eternal life through Jesus Christ, Considering how many
temptations we are compassed with, and what corrupt desires we have in our bosoms, we have great need to keep our hearts with all diligence. Those cannot walk aright, who walk carelessly. Moses charges particularly to take heed of the sin of idolatry. He shows how weak the temptation would be to those who thought aright; for these pretended gods, the sun, moon, and stars, were only blessings which the Lord their God had imparted to all nations. It is absurd to worship them; shall we serve those that were made to serve us? Take heed lest ye forget the covenant of the Lord your God. We must take heed lest at any time we forget our religion. Care, caution, and watchfulness, are helps against a bad memory. (De 4:24-40)
IMO I believe that passage is warning people against worshiping other Gods and Idols. Moses had just led them out of Egypt where in Egypt there worshipped many Gods. He didnt want them to fall back into that trap.
Jesus never claimed that he was another God, He claimed that he and God are one in the same. He is not a seperate God from Yah-weh himself, but that he and God are the same. There is no differnce between God and Jesus. Jesus is just the human form of God.
If you believe that God is one in the same than why does god say he is alone?
look: Deut 32 :39 "See now that I myself am He!
There is no god besides me.
I put to death and I bring to life,
I have wounded and I will heal,
and no one can deliver out of my hand.
But you claim Jesus was beside God. Are you calling God a liar that he says no other gods beside me?
Why does God say this: Isaiah 43: 3 For I am HaShem thy G-d, The Holy One of Israel, thy Saviour; I have given Egypt as thy ransom, Ethiopia and Seba for thee. 10 Ye are My witnesses, saith HaShem, and My servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe Me, and understand that I am He; before Me there was no G-d formed, neither shall any be after Me.11 I, even I, am HaShem; and beside Me there is no saviour.
So he clearly states no one is with him. He is alone and the only savior. No where does it mention Jesus or the Messiah.
Please tell me what Jesus is saving us from if God said Deut 24:16 Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their fathers; each is to die for his own sin.
So again look at what you said "There is no difference between God and Jesus. Jesus is just the human form of God.
See you clearly do not understand so let me explain Deut 4:15. And you shall watch yourselves very well, for you did not see any image on the day that the Lord spoke to you at Horeb from the midst of the fire.6. Lest you become corrupt and make for yourselves a graven image, the representation of any form, the likeness of male or female,
What God is saying to Israel is that because God took no form, you should not worship anything that looks like man, beast, stars, moon and stars. So Israel is not supposed to follow anyone that tells them to go astray from the one god. Jesus is a man (just as you confirmed)so worshipping or praying to him would be Idolatry. Why do I say that is because it states "the representation of any form, the likeness of male or female." I do not know about you but how more clear could that be written. If your parents when you were younger told you to stay away from strangers and do not talk to any one that does not look familiar. Did you understand their commandment?
The Messiah is stated in the Old Testament as a Jew that will restore the Jews to the land and restore god’s commandments. Jesus can not be the messiah because he leads people away from the Torah.
Finally, Jesus can claim whatever he wants but the Old Testament proves that He is not god. If Jesus can claim he is god than any man can because no where in the OT does it state the Messiah would be god or replace god.
If you believe that God is one in the same than why does god say he is alone? look: Deut 32 :39 "See now that I myself am He! There is no god besides me. I put to death and I bring to life, I have wounded and I will heal, and no one can deliver out of my hand.
But you claim Jesus was beside God. Are you calling God a liar that he says no other gods beside me?
Why does God say this: Isaiah 43: 3 For I am HaShem thy G-d, The Holy One of Israel, thy Saviour; I have given Egypt as thy ransom, Ethiopia and Seba for thee. 10 Ye are My witnesses, saith HaShem, and My servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe Me, and understand that I am He; before Me there was no G-d formed, neither shall any be after Me.11 I, even I, am HaShem; and beside Me there is no saviour.
So he clearly states no one is with him. He is alone and the only savior. No where does it mention Jesus or the Messiah.
Please tell me what Jesus is saving us from if God said Deut 24:16 Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their fathers; each is to die for his own sin.
So again look at what you said "There is no difference between God and Jesus. Jesus is just the human form of God.
See you clearly do not understand so let me explain Deut 4:15. And you shall watch yourselves very well, for you did not see any image on the day that the Lord spoke to you at Horeb from the midst of the fire.6. Lest you become corrupt and make for yourselves a graven image, the representation of any form, the likeness of male or female,
What God is saying to Israel is that because God took no form, you should not worship anything that looks like man, beast, stars, moon and stars. So Israel is not supposed to follow anyone that tells them to go astray from the one god. Jesus is a man (just as you confirmed)so worshipping or praying to him would be Idolatry. Why do I say that is because it states "the representation of any form, the likeness of male or female." I do not know about you but how more clear could that be written. If your parents when you were younger told you to stay away from strangers and do not talk to any one that does not look familiar. Did you understand their commandment?
The Messiah is stated in the Old Testament as a Jew that will restore the Jews to the land and restore god’s commandments. Jesus can not be the messiah because he leads people away from the Torah.
Finally, Jesus can claim whatever he wants but the Old Testament proves that He is not god. If Jesus can claim he is god than any man can because no where in the OT does it state the Messiah would be god or replace god.
This is a great example of BIBLIANITY which I mentioned in this post ( #33 )!
Religion is man-made...those that follow can't agree about anything, yet they claim to have all the answers. The compasion and morality is developed through social enterprise and common sense, not handed down through scripture or tablets, there is no magic bearded man in the sky, grow up and stop believing in fairytales. P.S. Santa Clause and the Easter Bunny are not real either (but of course those are rediculous, right?)
-Deaths in the Bible...God-2,270,365 (not including Noah's Flood, Sodom and Gomorah, Plagues, ect...there were no accounts given.) Satan-10
-"The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also." Mark Twain
-"A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties; no religious basis neccessary. Man would be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishmant and hope of reward after death" A. Einstein
And to all "believers" that say I'm not going to heaven.... I was dead for billions of years before I was born and it didn't bother me in the slightest.
Religion is man-made...those that follow can't agree about anything, yet they claim to have all the answers. The compasion and morality is developed through social enterprise and common sense, not handed down through scripture or tablets, there is no magic bearded man in the sky, grow up and stop believing in fairytales. P.S. Santa Clause and the Easter Bunny are not real either (but of course those are rediculous, right?)
-Deaths in the Bible...God-2,270,365 (not including Noah's Flood, Sodom and Gomorah, Plagues, ect...there were no accounts given.) Satan-10
-"The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also." Mark Twain
-"A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties; no religious basis neccessary. Man would be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishmant and hope of reward after death" A. Einstein
And to all "believers" that say I'm not going to heaven.... I was dead for billions of years before I was born and it didn't bother me in the slightest.
Great post!! And I totally agree. Especially the last line!!
Before I believed anything, I had a laundry list of questions I would ask everytime I was confronted with the name Jesus or anything to do with the Bible. I would ask anything from: Why arent the dinosours in the bible? to How can a good God, send people to Hell?...
Even though we can only answer so many questions before the individual has to take it upon themselves to build a relationship with the Lord. I feel that it would be good idea to start a thread that will try to answer some of those questions.
This thread is For those who are seeking the truth or that just would like to know what Christians have to say about this or that...
The best way to get answers are to ask questions...
The biggest question I have ever been asked and continue to be asked by non-believers is why is pain and evil are allowed to be inflicted on innocent people. It is a tough question to answer and I have struggled with answering for years.
As a Christian: I affirm that atheists can be, and are, moral, though, of course, some aren't (the same can be said, unfortunately, for some Christians); but I also find your quote revealing- you didn't want to act in a particular manner because you felt nice today (as opposed to knowing that , absolutely, it is appropriate to be nice). Seems to me that this is always going to be the issue relative to behavior with those who don't believe in absolutes. I understand why you criticize Christians for immoral behavior, when appropriate, because we have a standard by which we can be measured. (Scripture, incidentally, is full of criticism of Christians who exhibit sub-Christian morality). I am less certain why atheists behave in a consistently moral fashion. Don't get me wrong, I am thankful for moral atheists, and I know they exist. However, ethics based on consesus, or feeling, no matter how "good" they are, will always be arbitrary. Still, thank you for being ethical, whatever your motivation.
OOHHHHH!!!!! This kind of thinking makes me so frustrated! I wonder if these Christians (these in particular, not all Christians in general) have any idea how offensive this is to non-believers! I always do my best to understand believers of all kinds - and I have many religious friends that I adore and repsect. But this holier than thou attitude of saying - You basically got "lucky" by having some sort of sense between right and wrong with out the Bible - is so infuriating! I would say that, out of the people that I know, the number of people who have cheated, lied, etc. - is pretty equal between believers and non-believers. This thread was supposed to be about questions about Christianity - but it's hard to want to ask questions when so much time seems to have been spent saying we are blind, we don't have morals, we don't know anything. It doesn't seem like a thread to answer questions but to explain to us how we are wrong if you don't believe the same things.
Sorry that this seems kind of angry - I just don't understand why people are still surprised that non-believers don't go around murdering and raping. As if we are all born blood thirsty and the Bible is the only thing that can tame it. Humans are born wanting love - not following the Bible doesn't change that.
The biggest question I have ever been asked and continue to be asked by non-believers is why is pain and evil are allowed to be inflicted on innocent people. It is a tough question to answer and I have struggled with answering for years.
As a Christian: I affirm that atheists can be, and are, moral, though, of course, some aren't (the same can be said, unfortunately, for some Christians)
Actually Atheists are more moral than christians, and statistics prove that.
75% of the US population are christian.
75% of the prison population are christian
15% of the US population are Atheists
0.2% of the prison population are Atheists
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