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IMO, a better logical assertion perhaps is, "whoever/whatever created the universe might know how it's running"
"whoever/whatever" is not a better assertion just yet. If you want to make your case for god stick with the here and now. A living planet is more valid than a non living planet. That probably is what is being misunderstood as god. But it certainly is not nothing. It is far more valid to claim a system of life over a system of non life.
And denying everything because we are "afraid of science being used as a springboard for theist" is down right mean, deceitful, and nonsensical.
To claim the universe didn't, at the very least, self organize, is not processing data in a meaningful way (life does this) and to deny it is not quantum computing us right now ... is basically hogwash.
"whoever/whatever" is not a better assertion just yet. If you want to make your case for god stick with the here and now. A living planet is more valid than a non living planet. That probably is what is being misunderstood as god. But it certainly is not nothing. It is far more valid to claim a system of life over a system of non life.
And denying everything because we are "afraid of science being used as a springboard for theist" is down right mean, deceitful, and nonsensical.
To claim the universe didn't, at the very least, self organize, is not processing data in a meaningful way (life does this) and to deny it is not quantum computing us right now ... is basically hogwash.
Science does not have an answer yet when we ponder upon the fundamental question of “what or who started it all?
We only have our limited logic and intelligence (that varies from person to person) to make our assertions to answer this fundamental question.
What was there before universe? The answer is, - Either, “NOTHING”, or “WE DONT KNOW”.
If “NOTHING”, then the universe cannot decide to create itself when it did not exist.
It’s ridiculous. You can not decide to create yourself when you don’t exist.
If the answer is “WE DONT KNOW” - then there is always a possibility of God (call it a “force with intelligence). And there is always a possibility of “no God”.
It’s then up to us to base our assertions on logic, intelligence and research to form the faith whether God exists or does not exist.
Science cannot answer yet - so neither side has any evidence to support their faith - be it Atheists or Theists.
Science does not have an answer yet when we ponder upon the fundamental question of “what or who started it all?
We only have our limited logic and intelligence (that varies from person to person) to make our assertions to answer this fundamental question.
What was there before universe? The answer is, - Either, “NOTHING”, or “WE DONT KNOW”.
If “NOTHING”, then the universe cannot decide to create itself when it did not exist.
It’s ridiculous. You can not decide to create yourself when you don’t exist.
If the answer is “WE DONT KNOW” - then there is always a possibility of God (call it a “force with intelligence). And there is always a possibility of “no God”.
It’s then up to us to base our assertions on logic, intelligence and research to form the faith whether God exists or does not exist.
Science cannot answer yet - so neither side has any evidence to support their faith - be it Atheists or Theists.
I see a few problems with your thoughts. First, by stating the universe could nor “decide” to create itself you are implying that some sort of volition was required. On what basis can you assert that?
Secondly, why can’t the universe suddenly appear from nothing? Consider for a moment the state of nothing, which implies that time is similarly meaningless, as there is nothing to measure change against. I think we can agree that this is a state that we cannot truly comprehend. If the concepts of time and space are rendered meaningless, why not causality? If we consider that the non-existence of time and space could have been infinite, another inconceivable concept I admit, how can we say that spontaneous appearance in such an inconceivable null state is impossible?
The only truthful thing we can say, as you note, is that we do not know. On this we agree. But based on the fact that we have absolutely zero evidence for a god, isn’t that more likely to indicate that a god does not exist? And given that we do not have any evidence for any characteristics of this hidden deity, what basis does anybody have for following any religion? Isn’t it equally possible if there is a god that she/he/it/they don’t want to be worshipped? That they don’t like human beings? That they prefer child sacrifice?
If you are going to rest your faith on the fact that we cannot disprove a god, then logically you have to accept all conceivable gods. Does that actually get a theist anywhere?
Secondly, why can’t the universe suddenly appear from nothing?
If your logic and intelligence tells you to believe so, then be my guest.
My logic and my limited intelligence does not let me digest this.
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Originally Posted by fishbrains
If you are going to rest your faith on the fact that we cannot disprove a god, then logically you have to accept all conceivable gods. Does that actually get a theist anywhere?
This is where you need to open to up to at least try to understand the use of logic and intelligence (once again) to learn the reasons of theology.
The first question is, What or who is God?
For my personally, I do not know the full answer but I do have some very basic and fundamental conditions, call it frame of references, to try judge to whether an entity can be considered a God or not.
1 - He MUST be ONE.
2 - He MUST NOT rely on anything.
3 - He begot NONE, nor was he begotten
4 - There is nothing equal to him.
5 - God will reveal himself to me only after my death.
Now with these 5 very basic conditions, I can judge and make a decision whether an entity that claims to be God, meets these conditions or not?
Which brings us to the answer of second question. And the second question is,
And the second question is, out of these many candidates, which one is a true god?
Lets say, someone says, cow is the god.
I use my list and see that it meets none of the criteria.
We come to Roman gods and the Greek gods and the Hindu gods etc, I can easily reject all of them because none meets my criteria.
While people in Hindu gods and Roman gods, and Greek gods, I don't have an issue with it. They are at liberty to choose what they feel like it.
Then it comes to Jesus.
Many may believe him to be their god - good for them.
For me again, does not meet the criteria so I don't accept him as a God.
What you want to consider is that believing in God is not always an easy thing to do. Depending on the god one believes in, it comes with additional responsibilities.
There are faiths and gods that guarantee you a red carpet cosmic welcome, and a 'no question asked', entry ticket to paradise just for believing in those gods and not put any effort to support your faith.
However, the reason I believe in my God is because it provides the kind of guidance to live a life, that sits well with my intelligence and my logic.
I also believe that this God is just. And I will be held responsible for my actions even if local laws of the land are unable to catch or punish me. I also believe that this God may reward the good actions and good deeds.
Other people have other reasons to believe in their god - and I don't have an issue with it.
At the end of the day, as I always say, we will be responsible for our choices.
For my personally, I do not know the full answer but I do have some very basic and fundamental conditions, call it frame of references, to try judge to whether an entity can be considered a God or not.
1 - He MUST be ONE.
2 - He MUST NOT rely on anything.
3 - He begot NONE, nor was he begotten
4 - There is nothing equal to him.
5 - God will reveal himself to me only after my death.
Now with these 5 very basic conditions, I can judge and make a decision whether an entity that claims to be God, meets these conditions or not?
Thank you. Posters frequently dodge the question of what god is, and I have to give you credit for describing your concept of god.
How did you come to decide upon your 5 conditions? I don’t see that any of them are supported, or necessarily conditions for god. I can conceive of multiple gods, or gods that reproduce, or gods that will not reveal themselves, among other objections. Why do you think your list of conditions is true?
IMO, a better logical assertion perhaps is, "whoever/whatever created the universe might know how it's running"
You have yet to prove a 'creation'.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoCardinals
Science does not have an answer yet when we ponder upon the fundamental question of “what or who started it all?
Again. Can you show that there ever was a start rather than saying that the universe has always been there in some form or other?
Quote:
What was there before universe? The answer is, - Either, “NOTHING”, or “WE DONT KNOW”.
Or there is another answer. IT HAS ALWAYS EXISTED IN SOME FORM OR OTHER.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoCardinals
If your logic and intelligence tells you to believe so, then be my guest.
My logic and my limited intelligence does not let me digest this.
...and yet you have absolutely no problem in accepting that your god created everything...from nothing.
Quote:
The first question is, What or who is God?
No. The first question is - Does God exist. Existence is primary. What God is or does is secondary.
,
Quote:
And the second question is, out of these many candidates, which one is a true god?
Lets say, someone says, cow is the god.
I use my list and see that it meets none of the criteria.
We come to Roman gods and the Greek gods and the Hindu gods etc, I can easily reject all of them because none meets my criteria.
Science does not have an answer yet when we ponder upon the fundamental question of “what or who started it all?
We only have our limited logic and intelligence (that varies from person to person) to make our assertions to answer this fundamental question.
What was there before universe? The answer is, - Either, “NOTHING”, or “WE DONT KNOW”.
If “NOTHING”, then the universe cannot decide to create itself when it did not exist.
It’s ridiculous. You can not decide to create yourself when you don’t exist.
If the answer is “WE DONT KNOW” - then there is always a possibility of God (call it a “force with intelligence). And there is always a possibility of “no God”.
It’s then up to us to base our assertions on logic, intelligence and research to form the faith whether God exists or does not exist.
Science cannot answer yet - so neither side has any evidence to support their faith - be it Atheists or Theists.
We have agreed that science is yet to have an answer so we will use logic and intelligence to discuss the matter - you perhaps wouldn’t understand this.
And you have yet to prove that the universe was not created.
Quote:
Again. Can you show that there ever was a start rather than saying that the universe has always been there in some form or other?
Or there is another answer. IT HAS ALWAYS EXISTED IN SOME FORM OR OTHER
.
If the universe was always there in some form, which is a possibility, then why aren’t you open to the possibility that we are also part of the universe - and we were also always there in some form - and hence death is not our end - we will exist in some form after death?
Ironically you won’t open to this possibility otherwise your belief in Atheism goes out of the window.
.
Quote:
..and yet you have absolutely no problem in accepting that your god created everything...from nothing.
That’s one of the things that makes him God.
If you can create the same out of nothing then you are also a candidate of becoming a God.
And you are more than welcome to give it shot.
Matter of fact, instead of creating everything from nothing (that’s too far fetched for starters) - try starting by creating a functional wing of a mosquito with every resource you have.
There you go, how much more fair I can get with? I gave you a chance to take the route of becoming God.
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No. The first question is - Does God exist. Existence is primary. What God is or does is secondary.
Are you saying, you *KNOW* that God does not exist?
,
Quote:
That's called 'Special Pleading'.
If there is a God out there who created it all, then I will be more than happy to extend a plea - be it special or ordinary.
I am only a human who has a short blip of a life span if I look at the size and formation of the universe and compare it to my existence.
Last edited by GoCardinals; 01-25-2019 at 01:13 AM..
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