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Old 03-15-2019, 07:04 AM
 
Location: Southern Oregon
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So... why would humans be “obliged to worship” BEFORE going to Heaven?
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Old 03-15-2019, 11:55 AM
 
4,035 posts, read 1,482,138 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nateswift View Post
So... why would humans be “obliged to worship” BEFORE going to Heaven?
Because perhaps the effort put in behind the obligatory worship, and living a peaceful and morally conscious life, TAKES them to in the first place?

It's a give n take, isn't it?
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Old 03-15-2019, 12:24 PM
 
Location: Southern Oregon
15,911 posts, read 7,371,598 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoCardinals View Post
Because perhaps the effort put in behind the obligatory worship, and living a peaceful and morally conscious life, TAKES them to in the first place?

It's a give n take, isn't it?
So the “practice” must lead to the condition of the heart? I don’t think so.
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Old 03-15-2019, 01:12 PM
 
Location: The backwoods of Pennsylvania ... unfortunately.
5,748 posts, read 3,255,415 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ukrkoz View Post
I believe, that's basically all that is done in Christian heaven, until "the new Earth" is created and they get new bodies to live in.

You could have just Googled it... yet here's an opinion:

“What are we going to do in heaven?” Some people say that in eternity we will do nothing except worship God forever. While worship will be a primary activity in heaven, it will not be our only activity. The Bible says in heaven we will not only worship but we will also work. Worship and work are not mutually exclusive. A perfect illustration of that is in the Garden of Eden. Adam and Eve, before the Fall, had perfect fellowship with God. But did they just sing hymns and pray all day long? No. Genesis 2:15 says God gave them a job: to cultivate the garden and to keep it. They worked and worshipped at the same time. And the same thing will be true for us in heaven. We will do more than sing hymns and pray all day. God has responsibilities for us. In Matthew 25, Jesus told the parable of the talents, which teaches us that based on our faithfulness in this life, we will receive responsibilities in the next life. Some will rule over planets, some will rule over stars, and some will rule over galaxies. Paul said one day we will judge angels (1 Corinthians 6:3). God will give us responsibilities to carry out in eternity, and we will find fulfillment in doing that.

What Will We Do In Heaven? · First Baptist Dallas


https://www.google.com/search?source...13.4yHh2s8aPD0
Wow ... so we work and worship ... work and worship ... work and worship ... work and worship.

And since you don't need sleep in Heaven, that's what you do all day, every day ... every second of every minute of every hour of every day of every week of every month of every year of every decade of every century of every millennium of every epoch of every age ... for eternity.

No vacation time. No fun. No recreation. No rest. No hobbies. No "me" time.

Who really gives a care if your dead relatives are there - you won't get to do anything meaningful with them. Because you're now living in God's personal little Auschwitz. You work and worship. Work and worship. That's even more hellish than doing nothing but worship.

With nothing to look forward to, nothing to anticipate. No more can you turn to your fellow slave - err, I mean your fellow co-worker and say, "Man, I can't wait until this day is over. Me and my girlfriend are taking a road trip for the weekend, and then ..." Yeah, no more conversations of what you're going to do after your done working. No more looking forward to spending quality time with friends or family. No more looking forward to curling up with a good book, watching your favorite TV shows, engaging in a hobby or passionate interest, no more going for walks, no more shopping, no more taking your kids to the zoo.

Nope. It's just work and worship, work and worship.

It's no wonder, then, that America is a country filled to bursting with stressed-out workaholics who believe that you must remain productive at all times - even when engaging in a hobby. It's no coincidence that most Americans have hobbies that are actual jobs in any other context. Someone might restore old cars in their off hours, but mechanics do that and get paid. If gardening is your thing, landscapers do the same and get paid. Simply playing a game or some other entertaining pastime is forbidden because you're not producing anything and therefore, it is a waste of time.

Who says that? Why, the Puritans, of course - that band of Christian fanatics, ISIS's opposite number - yeah - those people. The very people who brought us dumb little parables like: "Idle hands are the devil's workshop." In other words, if you're not being productive, the devil might entice you with something entertaining - like books, video games, board games, and other forms of entertainment that doesn't come with a production value.

No doubt whoever wrote such a "rosy" opinion of what Heaven will be like was an American who was indoctrinated into Puritan garbage-doctrine. "We don't just worship, we also work!" As if such a declaration should get us all excited to die. Those who claim that a person is now "at rest" when they die is sorely mistaken, then ... aren't they.

What I find even more baffling is the idea of working in Heaven, a place that is reputably perfect. I mean, what happens if we DON'T work? What if we refuse? What if we go on strike? Well, in order for the place to stay Heaven, the answer would have to be ... nothing. Absolutely nothing changes. Because you can't die in Heaven. You can't starve to death. You can't suffer. You can't get sick. You can't feel pain.

So anyone who is stupid enough to enter into such voluntary slavery deserves to work their buttocks off for no reason whatsoever. Heaven will still be Heaven regardless.

And what exactly do we have to work FOR? Wouldn't Heaven supply our needs? After all, since we ONLY work and worship, the only thing we would even need is ... well, nothing? Why would we have to grow food in a place where there is no starvation? Why build a house when there are no elements from which to be protected? Why even make clothes when the idea of shame, embarrassment, and modesty are no longer relevant?

Therefore, the person writing this opinion overplayed his hand by forgetting that he was writing about Heaven - not just a really great earth where you still starve, die, suffer, get old, feel pain, need protection from the elements, need clothing for modesty and moral purposes, and all the rest of it. In Heaven, there is literally no reason to have to work.

Thus it reminds me of a Russian Gulag where a prisoner is tasked with picking up hundreds of very heavy rocks and moving them to the other side of the gulag. Once done, he is tasked with picking them all up again and moving them back to the previous side of the gulag - on and on and on. In other words, busy work. It isn't productive work. It's just something to keep you busy for the rest of eternity - for no discernable reason.

The fact that the opinion writer couldn't come up with something that actually makes Heaven sound, well, Heavenly, shows where the fool's mind is. I mean, he couldn't say, "We don't just worship! No, we get to play, too, and sing songs, run through verdant forests playing games. We can spend quality time with friends and loved ones, and if we want our modern conveniences like computers and televisions, you can have those, too!"

No ... it's slavery. Literal slavery. That's what Heaven is to this person. Work and worship, work and worship. What, is he crazy? Mad? Mentally ill?

Why on earth would ANYONE consider a repetitive schedule of work and worship to be AT ALL something a person would want as their final reward? It sounds more like anyone who buys into Christianity gets rewarded the Cosmic Booby Prize.

Of course, all of that is contingent upon God existing, Heaven existing, and Heaven actually being remotely like this person's opinion. Whatever the case, it is an awful opinion, one that should send shudders of fear through any Christian.

So hurry up and play, get in your good times now - because once you die, it's over. Then it's work and worship, work and worship. No rest for the saved.
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Old 03-15-2019, 01:55 PM
 
Location: The backwoods of Pennsylvania ... unfortunately.
5,748 posts, read 3,255,415 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel View Post
When someone is greedy to please themself, then they kick God to the curb. Whether in this world or the next. That is what is being described. Once the person has heaven they dispose of God.

That approach is utterly self centered. That is why it is fraudulent and not a path to the Divine. Your goal seems to be get to heaven then dump God. A very different goal then get to heaven to spend time with God.

You consider God an "obligation" (heavy drudgery---ditch the dude as soon as you get what you want). Very different from considering God a "joy" (delightful pleasing--- seek to be together at every moment possible)
"Seek to be together at every possible moment." What you just described is what mentally ill people do to their "significant others." You've seen the movie "Fatal Attraction," no?

What I find odd is that you accuse others of being self-centered ... and yet why are they self-centered? Well, because they refuse to cater to God's self-centeredness.

It's like saying, "How dare you think only of yourself - you should only think about God because he's self-centered and demands that you give him all of your attention and focus!"

I mean, how can one tell the difference between the two selfish parties, here? Shouldn't a true God be above such petty egocentrism?

It never fails to baffle me why human beings can never invent a God who actually acts like one. Instead, throughout the ages, we have invented one God after another, and they're all the same.

They all demonstrate the absolute worst humanity has to offer - a bloodthirsty, angry, vengeful, boastful, egocentric, megalomaniacal, narcissistic, warlike, bigoted, racist, prejudiced, petty, selfish, vain, genocidal, psychopathic, murderous, and jealous being that never lifts a finger for humanity except to either coddle one specific race and/or ethnic group or to kill everyone else for daring to disobey.

Why, for the love of all that is holy, can no one invent a truly loving God? I mean, as an atheist, no culture has even invented a God that I *want* to worship - much less actually believe exists. Almost all gods are charicatures of evil human beings. They are never truly loving, forgiving, compassionate, wise, noble, good, moral, decent, humble, peaceful, or just downright great beings to have around.

Instead, these gods are only ever interested in themselves, their power, their rule, their dominion, and their ability to create as much death, destruction, sickness, famine, and plagues that they can.

This is just another example. Any being who demands that we put it above all other things - not just our own lives, but the lives of even our own children, our own parents, our own relatives, our own friends, even if they demand we put other human beings beneath it's own wants and desires - is a hoodlum. Why should I even begin to worry what an all-powerful being wants? A being that could just make what he wants happen with but a thought. Why worry about such a god when I'd rather worry about the plight of another mortal who cannot simply "think" his/her way out of the problems they face?

Yet we are supposed to ignore the needs, the wants, the suffering, the plight, the trials and tribulations of even ourselves much less our spouses, our kids, our parents - and instead devote our lives to pleasing a deity that simply cannot be pleased.

As I've said so many times before - any religion that demands we shelve our compassion for our fellow human beings and instead care only what God wants us to do, we end up with an oppressive, bigoted, prejudiced society that enjoys such things as persecution, warfare, murder, destruction, forced conversions, judging others i.e. inquisitions, ostracizing or shunning or exiling those who refuse to worship the same god in the same way as the majority - I could go on and on.

Because showing tolerance, even acceptance, as well as compassion for any human on earth takes a massively distant back seat to pleasing an invisible deity that never really tells us if he's pleased or if we've actually done good by him. We just have to guess. "Oh look, we've had a good rainfall this year! I guess murdering all of those unbelievers in that neighboring country pleased our god!"

Putting God before humanity is morally corrosive, lessens the value of human life (especially when you have barmy Christians claiming, "Who cares if someone suffers for 40 years - this life is temporary anyway!"), and gives a just cause for every atrocity in the book.

Thus I find it rather absurd that we're supposed to cease being immoral for our own sake and instead we should be immoral for God - and thus put HIM above the needs of everyone else. How dare you look to your own life, your own needs, before the needs of a God who can literally do anything and doesn't need our help in any least way.

Instead of being immoral for the sake of a god, shouldn't we just not be ... immoral ... at all?
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Old 03-15-2019, 04:11 PM
 
4,035 posts, read 1,482,138 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nateswift View Post
So the “practice” must lead to the condition of the heart? I don’t think so.
Not sure if I follow this.
Can you provide an example?
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Old 03-15-2019, 04:17 PM
 
4,035 posts, read 1,482,138 times
Reputation: 1307
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shirina View Post
Wow ... so we work and worship ... work and worship ... work and worship ... work and worship.

And since you don't need sleep in Heaven, that's what you do all day, every day ... every second of every minute of every hour of every day of every week of every month of every year of every decade of every century of every millennium of every epoch of every age ... for eternity.

No vacation time. No fun. No recreation. No rest. No hobbies. No "me" time.

Who really gives a care if your dead relatives are there - you won't get to do anything meaningful with them. Because you're now living in God's personal little Auschwitz. You work and worship. Work and worship. That's even more hellish than doing nothing but worship.

With nothing to look forward to, nothing to anticipate. No more can you turn to your fellow slave - err, I mean your fellow co-worker and say, "Man, I can't wait until this day is over. Me and my girlfriend are taking a road trip for the weekend, and then ..." Yeah, no more conversations of what you're going to do after your done working. No more looking forward to spending quality time with friends or family. No more looking forward to curling up with a good book, watching your favorite TV shows, engaging in a hobby or passionate interest, no more going for walks, no more shopping, no more taking your kids to the zoo.

Nope. It's just work and worship, work and worship.

It's no wonder, then, that America is a country filled to bursting with stressed-out workaholics who believe that you must remain productive at all times - even when engaging in a hobby. It's no coincidence that most Americans have hobbies that are actual jobs in any other context. Someone might restore old cars in their off hours, but mechanics do that and get paid. If gardening is your thing, landscapers do the same and get paid. Simply playing a game or some other entertaining pastime is forbidden because you're not producing anything and therefore, it is a waste of time.

Who says that? Why, the Puritans, of course - that band of Christian fanatics, ISIS's opposite number - yeah - those people. The very people who brought us dumb little parables like: "Idle hands are the devil's workshop." In other words, if you're not being productive, the devil might entice you with something entertaining - like books, video games, board games, and other forms of entertainment that doesn't come with a production value.

No doubt whoever wrote such a "rosy" opinion of what Heaven will be like was an American who was indoctrinated into Puritan garbage-doctrine. "We don't just worship, we also work!" As if such a declaration should get us all excited to die. Those who claim that a person is now "at rest" when they die is sorely mistaken, then ... aren't they.

What I find even more baffling is the idea of working in Heaven, a place that is reputably perfect. I mean, what happens if we DON'T work? What if we refuse? What if we go on strike? Well, in order for the place to stay Heaven, the answer would have to be ... nothing. Absolutely nothing changes. Because you can't die in Heaven. You can't starve to death. You can't suffer. You can't get sick. You can't feel pain.

So anyone who is stupid enough to enter into such voluntary slavery deserves to work their buttocks off for no reason whatsoever. Heaven will still be Heaven regardless.

And what exactly do we have to work FOR? Wouldn't Heaven supply our needs? After all, since we ONLY work and worship, the only thing we would even need is ... well, nothing? Why would we have to grow food in a place where there is no starvation? Why build a house when there are no elements from which to be protected? Why even make clothes when the idea of shame, embarrassment, and modesty are no longer relevant?

Therefore, the person writing this opinion overplayed his hand by forgetting that he was writing about Heaven - not just a really great earth where you still starve, die, suffer, get old, feel pain, need protection from the elements, need clothing for modesty and moral purposes, and all the rest of it. In Heaven, there is literally no reason to have to work.

Thus it reminds me of a Russian Gulag where a prisoner is tasked with picking up hundreds of very heavy rocks and moving them to the other side of the gulag. Once done, he is tasked with picking them all up again and moving them back to the previous side of the gulag - on and on and on. In other words, busy work. It isn't productive work. It's just something to keep you busy for the rest of eternity - for no discernable reason.

The fact that the opinion writer couldn't come up with something that actually makes Heaven sound, well, Heavenly, shows where the fool's mind is. I mean, he couldn't say, "We don't just worship! No, we get to play, too, and sing songs, run through verdant forests playing games. We can spend quality time with friends and loved ones, and if we want our modern conveniences like computers and televisions, you can have those, too!"

No ... it's slavery. Literal slavery. That's what Heaven is to this person. Work and worship, work and worship. What, is he crazy? Mad? Mentally ill?

Why on earth would ANYONE consider a repetitive schedule of work and worship to be AT ALL something a person would want as their final reward? It sounds more like anyone who buys into Christianity gets rewarded the Cosmic Booby Prize.

Of course, all of that is contingent upon God existing, Heaven existing, and Heaven actually being remotely like this person's opinion. Whatever the case, it is an awful opinion, one that should send shudders of fear through any Christian.

So hurry up and play, get in your good times now - because once you die, it's over. Then it's work and worship, work and worship. No rest for the saved.
Now you are talking.

And that's what I am saying, logically speaking it doesn't make sense to have any worship, any worry, any responsibility or any effort in heaven - otherwise it's not heaven (IF in fact it exists).

There is a place in heaven where paintings of extremely beautiful women are placed. A female resident of the heaven will look at those paintings, and would simply wish to become as pretty as one of those females in one of the paintings - and she will become just like that.

If there are still any pains and worries and jobs and responsibilities and evil thoughts/actions in heaven - then it's not heaven.
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Old 03-15-2019, 04:27 PM
 
Location: Southern Oregon
15,911 posts, read 7,371,598 times
Reputation: 1671
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoCardinals View Post
Not sure if I follow this.
Can you provide an example?
Example of what? The post I quoted seems to suggest what I concluded and if you intended some other meaning or result from the forms required in Islam then you should explain why my conclusion is wrong.
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Old 03-15-2019, 05:16 PM
 
Location: NSW
2,659 posts, read 1,794,290 times
Reputation: 911
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shirina View Post
Wow ... so we work and worship ... work and worship ... work and worship ... work and worship.

And since you don't need sleep in Heaven, that's what you do all day, every day ... every second of every minute of every hour of every day of every week of every month of every year of every decade of every century of every millennium of every epoch of every age ... for eternity.

No vacation time. No fun. No recreation. No rest. No hobbies. No "me" time.

Who really gives a care if your dead relatives are there - you won't get to do anything meaningful with them. Because you're now living in God's personal little Auschwitz. You work and worship. Work and worship. That's even more hellish than doing nothing but worship.

With nothing to look forward to, nothing to anticipate. No more can you turn to your fellow slave - err, I mean your fellow co-worker and say, "Man, I can't wait until this day is over. Me and my girlfriend are taking a road trip for the weekend, and then ..." Yeah, no more conversations of what you're going to do after your done working. No more looking forward to spending quality time with friends or family. No more looking forward to curling up with a good book, watching your favorite TV shows, engaging in a hobby or passionate interest, no more going for walks, no more shopping, no more taking your kids to the zoo.

Nope. It's just work and worship, work and worship.

It's no wonder, then, that America is a country filled to bursting with stressed-out workaholics who believe that you must remain productive at all times - even when engaging in a hobby. It's no coincidence that most Americans have hobbies that are actual jobs in any other context. Someone might restore old cars in their off hours, but mechanics do that and get paid. If gardening is your thing, landscapers do the same and get paid. Simply playing a game or some other entertaining pastime is forbidden because you're not producing anything and therefore, it is a waste of time.

Who says that? Why, the Puritans, of course - that band of Christian fanatics, ISIS's opposite number - yeah - those people. The very people who brought us dumb little parables like: "Idle hands are the devil's workshop." In other words, if you're not being productive, the devil might entice you with something entertaining - like books, video games, board games, and other forms of entertainment that doesn't come with a production value.

No doubt whoever wrote such a "rosy" opinion of what Heaven will be like was an American who was indoctrinated into Puritan garbage-doctrine. "We don't just worship, we also work!" As if such a declaration should get us all excited to die. Those who claim that a person is now "at rest" when they die is sorely mistaken, then ... aren't they.

What I find even more baffling is the idea of working in Heaven, a place that is reputably perfect. I mean, what happens if we DON'T work? What if we refuse? What if we go on strike? Well, in order for the place to stay Heaven, the answer would have to be ... nothing. Absolutely nothing changes. Because you can't die in Heaven. You can't starve to death. You can't suffer. You can't get sick. You can't feel pain.

So anyone who is stupid enough to enter into such voluntary slavery deserves to work their buttocks off for no reason whatsoever. Heaven will still be Heaven regardless.

And what exactly do we have to work FOR? Wouldn't Heaven supply our needs? After all, since we ONLY work and worship, the only thing we would even need is ... well, nothing? Why would we have to grow food in a place where there is no starvation? Why build a house when there are no elements from which to be protected? Why even make clothes when the idea of shame, embarrassment, and modesty are no longer relevant?

Therefore, the person writing this opinion overplayed his hand by forgetting that he was writing about Heaven - not just a really great earth where you still starve, die, suffer, get old, feel pain, need protection from the elements, need clothing for modesty and moral purposes, and all the rest of it. In Heaven, there is literally no reason to have to work.

Thus it reminds me of a Russian Gulag where a prisoner is tasked with picking up hundreds of very heavy rocks and moving them to the other side of the gulag. Once done, he is tasked with picking them all up again and moving them back to the previous side of the gulag - on and on and on. In other words, busy work. It isn't productive work. It's just something to keep you busy for the rest of eternity - for no discernable reason.

The fact that the opinion writer couldn't come up with something that actually makes Heaven sound, well, Heavenly, shows where the fool's mind is. I mean, he couldn't say, "We don't just worship! No, we get to play, too, and sing songs, run through verdant forests playing games. We can spend quality time with friends and loved ones, and if we want our modern conveniences like computers and televisions, you can have those, too!"

No ... it's slavery. Literal slavery. That's what Heaven is to this person. Work and worship, work and worship. What, is he crazy? Mad? Mentally ill?

Why on earth would ANYONE consider a repetitive schedule of work and worship to be AT ALL something a person would want as their final reward? It sounds more like anyone who buys into Christianity gets rewarded the Cosmic Booby Prize.

Of course, all of that is contingent upon God existing, Heaven existing, and Heaven actually being remotely like this person's opinion. Whatever the case, it is an awful opinion, one that should send shudders of fear through any Christian.

So hurry up and play, get in your good times now - because once you die, it's over. Then it's work and worship, work and worship. No rest for the saved.
This sounds more like some sort of Stockholm Syndrome.
I'd like to think there were more interesting things to do up there, maybe fly around the Himalayas or something like that, but it is all still a mystery.
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Old 03-15-2019, 06:42 PM
 
Location: Oklahoma
2,174 posts, read 749,624 times
Reputation: 992
When I was a Christian, I was convinced that heaven was an endless golf course with fishing breaks.
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