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I have to agree with your point. My opinion is that our nation, society, communities, neighborhoods ....on and on have become so divided that the current hot ticket is division. Some people obviously love to spread controversy, hatred, division.
And then people scratch their heads, wonder why crime and such is so high, and then point the finger at someone else....blame others.
Revisionism is rampant in history, and has been since the 90s in some measurable, provable form, and likely way before that.
Biblican revisionism is alive and well too. There are many apologists and modern armchair scholar who want to sugar coat what the Bible says and does not say. The Bible was written by humans in a time when slavery was the norm. If you do not believe me, then pick up some socio-cultural journals which address the anthropological studies of ancient cultures, including the dominant cultures of the Biblical times, Romans, Egyptians and the Greeks and understand that various forms of slavery existed and were a way of life.
At no point, in the recorded Biblical teachings of Jesus, or his followers, is there a ban or even discourage slavery. One story even has Paul, a self professed early apostle, encouraging a slave to return to his master, and the master to accept the slave as a fellow Christian. While we do not know the status of that slave (ie captured prize, purchased, indentured servitude etc) we see clearly that Paul does not go to the master and tell him NOT to own a slave.
The Bible does not forbid slavery. Period. It does tell that a person may punish a slave by beating him almost to death, so long as the slave does not die, and this may be as punishment. So not only does the Bible allow slavery, it encourages human rights violations.
So now again, many apologists, will try to sugar coat this by saying "Oh OH OH Well Slavery did not mean the same thing then that it does now" Well, yes it does, and in many different forms. Again, research OTUSIDE of the Bible (if you are allowed by your church) and read the studies of the cultures around the area of Judea, again Romans, Egyptians, Greeks, and understand that slavery was simply an accepted part of life at the times.
Now again, I am against slavery (then again, you all know my opinion of the bible too) and I believe that slavery is one of the most vile and cruel things man can do to his fellow man. And trying to defend it by saying "Oh well the Bible says..." gets nowhere with me.
In the ends, Slavery is a cruel and evil institution and I hope to live long enough to see an end to it.
Well stated. Slavery is always wrong. Defending slavery as described in the Bible is also wrong . Slavery in places or people's that did not use or know about the Bible is also wrong. Our countries,religions, ethnic groups, political or economical beliefs have not been 100% right all the time either in the past or the present
.
Well stated. Slavery is always wrong. Defending slavery as described in the Bible is also wrong . Slavery in places or people's that did not use or know about the Bible is also wrong. Our countries,religions, ethnic groups, political or economical beliefs have not been 100% right all the time either in the past or the present
.
And yet, too many christians will try to make excuses for it instead of just relying, "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you".
I have to agree with your point. My opinion is that our nation, society, communities, neighborhoods ....on and on have become so divided that the current hot ticket is division. Some people obviously love to spread controversy, hatred, division.
And then people scratch their heads, wonder why crime and such is so high, and then point the finger at someone else....blame others.
Revisionism is rampant in history, and has been since the 90s in some measurable, provable form, and likely way before that.
Biblican revisionism is alive and well too. There are many apologists and modern armchair scholar who want to sugar coat what the Bible says and does not say. The Bible was written by humans in a time when slavery was the norm. If you do not believe me, then pick up some socio-cultural journals which address the anthropological studies of ancient cultures, including the dominant cultures of the Biblical times, Romans, Egyptians and the Greeks and understand that various forms of slavery existed and were a way of life.
At no point, in the recorded Biblical teachings of Jesus, or his followers, is there a ban or even discourage slavery. One story even has Paul, a self professed early apostle, encouraging a slave to return to his master, and the master to accept the slave as a fellow Christian. While we do not know the status of that slave (ie captured prize, purchased, indentured servitude etc) we see clearly that Paul does not go to the master and tell him NOT to own a slave.
The Bible does not forbid slavery. Period. It does tell that a person may punish a slave by beating him almost to death, so long as the slave does not die, and this may be as punishment. So not only does the Bible allow slavery, it encourages human rights violations.
So now again, many apologists, will try to sugar coat this by saying "Oh OH OH Well Slavery did not mean the same thing then that it does now" Well, yes it does, and in many different forms. Again, research OTUSIDE of the Bible (if you are allowed by your church) and read the studies of the cultures around the area of Judea, again Romans, Egyptians, Greeks, and understand that slavery was simply an accepted part of life at the times.
Now again, I am against slavery (then again, you all know my opinion of the bible too) and I believe that slavery is one of the most vile and cruel things man can do to his fellow man. And trying to defend it by saying "Oh well the Bible says..." gets nowhere with me.
In the ends, Slavery is a cruel and evil institution and I hope to live long enough to see an end to it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi
Excellent post. And another aspect of this that bothers me is that christians (I think intentionally) confuse many issues with the argument that the bible is an historical record of the era, while also saying that you can't take it literally. Intentional obfuscation.
And a great source of "division" is posts like this OP.
Only a completely ignorant person would judge ancient writings, culture, ways, and society by 2022 Western Civilization standards (not to say that we don't have ways just as bad or worse) and issue critiques based on that. They are trying as hard as possible to foment division with that kinda stuff.
Conquering other areas/tribes/people/etc and enslaving them was the almost categorical standard throughout human history for every single "group" of any type that was capable.
You'd have to bust on every single group, nation, empire, tribe, faction, etc, etc that possessed power that ever existed to be consistent.
And yet, too many christians will try to make excuses for it instead of just relying, "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you".
Not entirely their personal fault. They have been taught from young that their Bible is perfect word of God and that he is fair and just. So in order to believe that they need ways to excuse what they deep down know is wrong. If they accept that the Bible was wrong about slavery then they then must believe that their Bible is fallable.
Hence the stronger you believe the Bible is strickly the word of God the harder it is to codemm the passages referring to slavery. I think pointing out just what their Bible says about Slavery is seen more about attacking their God than it is about attacking slavery.
Don't mind me, I'm just here observing all these woke Westerners self-righteously condemning slavery with their apple and Samsung products while wearing Nikes...
Not entirely their personal fault. They have been taught from young that their Bible is perfect word of God and that he is fair and just. So in order to believe that they need ways to excuse what they deep down know is wrong. If they accept that the Bible was wrong about slavery then they then must believe that their Bible is fallable.
Hence the stronger you believe the Bible is strickly the word of God the harder it is to codemm the passages referring to slavery. I think pointing out just what their Bible says about Slavery is seen more about attacking their God than it is about attacking slavery.
Yeah...and being of Italian descent, one could bust on all my ancestors for the things we now consider so almost unbelievably heinous.
From conquering other people's and taking all they have and enslaving them, to torturing people to death in the most barbaric way for petty "crimes", to throwing people to be eaten by lions for entertainment, to drunken feasts & wild orgies, and even having your best soldiers fight to the death in public---as a '"show" for them.
The Romans covered all the bases of brutality and depravity...by today's standards.
Back then...it was just "regular/typical society" for them.
Yeah...and being of Italian descent, one could bust on all my ancestors for the things we now consider so almost unbelievably heinous.
From conquering other people's and taking all they have and enslaving them, to torturing people to death in the most barbaric way for petty "crimes", to throwing people to be eaten by lions for entertainment, to drunken feasts & wild orgies, and even having your best soldiers fight to the death in public---as a '"show" for them.
The Romans covered all the bases of brutality and depravity...by today's standards.
Back then...it was just "regular/typical society" for them.
And one can be proud of their Italian background andvstill accept what Italians as a group did wrong, Facism in WWII for exampke.
Don't mind me, I'm just here observing all these woke Westerners self-righteously condemning slavery with their apple and Samsung products while wearing Nikes...
Yes we do need to be more aware about who and how products are made. Unfortunately the entire truth iscseldom available to all consumers. Not all sweatshops are slavery nor are all factories in Asia worked by slaves. I notice you mentioned large electronics companies whereas garment workers are more likely to be working under these conditions.
But we do know exactly what your Bible says about slavery. Doesnt Apple for exampld just follow the teachings in the Bible? I doubt those who tell us slavery in the Bible was different from modern slavery do not support slaves in factories and are as likely to buy Apple or Samsung products as anyone else.
So Mike was slavery as described in your Bible wrong? As im Jewish male by birth i could be freed after six year but my sister and you would not have that opportunity.
And a great source of "division" is posts like this OP.
Only a completely ignorant person would judge ancient writings, culture, ways, and society by 2022 Western Civilization standards (not to say that we don't have ways just as bad or worse) and issue critiques based on that. They are trying as hard as possible to foment division with that kinda stuff.
Conquering other areas/tribes/people/etc and enslaving them was the almost categorical standard throughout human history for every single "group" of any type that was capable.
You'd have to bust on every single group, nation, empire, tribe, faction, etc, etc that possessed power that ever existed to be consistent.
I believe that a complete lack of this knowledge of our savage and brutal ancestry is the reason they bust on me for my descriptions of our savage ancestors as barbaric primitives and not remotely close to even the most barbaric modern humans. Until Jesus brought God's Holy Spirit to humanity by becoming HUMAN, we were unimaginably savage and brutal.
They mistreated cripples and other afflicted humans BECAUSE they did not want to treat them better than God did. They believed God's wrath was the reason for ALL negative circumstances. That is why they figured God must have needed Jesus to be scourged and crucified to appease His wrath and vengeance.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GldnRule
Yeah...and being of Italian descent, one could bust on all my ancestors for the things we now consider so almost unbelievably heinous.
From conquering other people's and taking all they have and enslaving them, to torturing people to death in the most barbaric way for petty "crimes", to throwing people to be eaten by lions for entertainment, to drunken feasts & wild orgies, and even having your best soldiers fight to the death in public---as a '"show" for them.
The Romans covered all the bases of brutality and depravity...by today's standards.
Back then...it was just "regular/typical society" for them.
They were only the epitome of our ancestors' savagery and brutality because they rose to dominate the known world through it. The reality is that we are unable to relate to their mindset, as you suggest.
I believe that a complete lack of this knowledge of our savage and brutal ancestry is the reason they bust on me for my descriptions of our savage ancestors as barbaric primitives and not remotely close to even the most barbaric modern humans. Until Jesus brought God's Holy Spirit to humanity by becoming HUMAN, we were unimaginably savage and brutal.
They mistreated cripples and other afflicted humans BECAUSE they did not want to treat them better than God did. They believed God's wrath was the reason for ALL negative circumstances. That is why they figured God must have needed Jesus to be scourged and crucified to appease His wrath and vengeance.
They were only the epitome of our ancestors' savagery and brutality because they rose to dominate the known world through it. The reality is that we are unable to relate to their mindset, as you suggest.
Are you speaking about all.peoples of the World prior to Jesus? And how much worse was savegery in what became Christian Europe prior to Jesus than after. I do know that findings from neolithic burials have shown people lived for decades after substainin cribbaling injuries.
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