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I'm not (yet) an atheist, but the flaw in the God-is-merciful argument is mercy for WHAT? Being human!
First you have to be taught that you are a worthless piece of crap just by virtue of your existence, and that in and of itself is harmful, particularly to a child, don't you think?
That may be what many people have been and are being taught but you don't have to be taught that. If that were the case then why did God bother to send his Son into the world to die for us in our place and why did Jesus say that we are worth 'many birds'? I know about the verse that says our works of righteousness are as filthy rags, but that doesn't mean that God considers us worthless pieces of crap.
That may be what many people have been and are being taught but you don't have to be taught that. If that were the case then why did God bother to send his Son into the world to die for us in our place and why did Jesus say that we are worth 'many birds'? I know about the verse that says our works of righteousness are as filthy rags, but that doesn't mean that God considers us worthless pieces of crap.
I think this sort of explanation or point of view is why some people will say they "are not an atheist (yet)."
I think this sort of explanation or point of view is why some people will say they "are not an atheist (yet)."
Atheism is NOT the only answer to this rebellion against human ignorance and superstitious beliefs about God, LearnMe. I spent decades finding that out because of my encounter WITH God! Human beliefs ABOUT God are not a legitimate basis for rejecting God, IMO, even though that is what I did for the first 30+ years of my life!! At the time, there was nothing in my view of the world and understanding of it that remotely suggested a God to me. That is why my encounter was such a life-changing experience.
I understand the fundamentalist position too, but I don't as well understand how someone comes to adopt a fundamentalist position. If/when I try to understand, I find the explanation to be somewhat insulting. As in an insult to one's intelligence.
It IS insulting! The Fundamentalist attitude wreaks of grandiosity and holier-than-thou stank. In my case, I didn't adopt it, I was born into it. But as an adult, I have felt and seen both sides of it and I understand now the indoctrination and the ludicrousness of it all. It's mostly ridiculous promises and fear that draw people in. It's all in the interpretation.
I really can't tell you either how one is led to become a Fundie, it is the most sickening display of self-righteousness as far as Christianity goes.
My late husband felt the same way when he was in 6th grade. He believed that he had already learned what he needed to know, in order to get by in life. He wasn't a believer back then, by long shot. But he looked down on others who decided to continue with their education, believing they were "stupid" because additional education wasn't necessary.
Meanwhile, I don't, nor have I EVER looked down on others because they don't believe as *I* do. I recognize that my own experiences aren't going to be the same as others. That doesn't make *my* experiences any less valid, nor does it mean that other's experiences are less valid.
I'm seeing a pattern here. Seems like there are a number of atheists who were once Christian, who came from a stoic, conservative, "hell, fire and brimstone" background, then more 'liberal' Christians.
I sort of wonder...if you, and other atheists had a different kind of 'training'...that is, that a "God is merciful" teaching, instead of "God-will-condemn-you-if-you-do-the-slightest-thing-wrong" kind of teaching, if you'd ever become an atheist at all...?
If you beat someone over the head enough 'then they'll eventually get the picture'. I can only speak for myself as an atheist. Yes, I come from a terribly "Fungelical" background and it's hard for anyone to not attribute me being an atheist because of that life experience. That is so far from the truth, and I am not angry with a god, I do not believe there is a god to be angry with!
I'm not angry with anyone about any of it, well, maybe a portion of it but more sad than angry. I WAS taught that god was merciful. I was taught all the same things that you believe, it was just presented very incorrectly and by people who thought they were the only ones who had the correct answers and interpretations.
It's not of any importance to my ascent into atheism. I mean as far as being enlightened and unencumbered by man-made fairy tales. The manner in which the 'instructions' were presented, it was all for the love of god, right? And yes, it was actually 'beat' into me because I rebelled. There is no amount of regret, anger, disappointment or anything else that matters, none of it is real. That's why I'm an atheist. Not because of what happened to me, because I became enlightened to the fact that the buy-bull is just that, and that I never really believed anyway.
I'm not trying to insult Christianity, in fact, I admire the devotion some people have, like my Grandfather did. But it makes me sad that he deprived himself and his family of truly living, experiencing things outside of religion. There were so many rules, but that was the more Pentecostal side of things. My relatives all meant well, they were indoctrinated too from way back and it's a difficult thing to come out of.
But I'm out, and I will remain out because there is nothing to hold onto. It just doesn't exist.
So how do I deal with situations, people, hard times, even good times? I plough through it until it gets better. I may melt down a time or two, but I don't rely on, I hate to say this, "sky fairies" to see me through. I prayed a lot when I was a Christian but when is it ever enough? Why do you suppose that prayers don't get answered, ever? Because it falls on deaf ears. Or no ears, that's more like it.
If you beat someone over the head enough 'then they'll eventually get the picture'. I can only speak for myself as an atheist. Yes, I come from a terribly "Fungelical" background and it's hard for anyone to not attribute me being an atheist because of that life experience. That is so far from the truth, and I am not angry with a god, I do not believe there is a god to be angry with!
I'm not angry with anyone about any of it, well, maybe a portion of it but more sad than angry. I WAS taught that god was merciful. I was taught all the same things that you believe, it was just presented very incorrectly and by people who thought they were the only ones who had the correct answers and interpretations.
It's not of any importance to my ascent into atheism. I mean as far as being enlightened and unencumbered by man-made fairy tales. The manner in which the 'instructions' were presented, it was all for the love of god, right? And yes, it was actually 'beat' into me because I rebelled. There is no amount of regret, anger, disappointment or anything else that matters, none of it is real. That's why I'm an atheist. Not because of what happened to me, because I became enlightened to the fact that the buy-bull is just that, and that I never really believed anyway.
I'm not trying to insult Christianity, in fact, I admire the devotion some people have, like my Grandfather did. But it makes me sad that he deprived himself and his family of truly living, experiencing things outside of religion. There were so many rules, but that was the more Pentecostal side of things. My relatives all meant well, they were indoctrinated too from way back and it's a difficult thing to come out of.
But I'm out, and I will remain out because there is nothing to hold onto. It just doesn't exist.
So how do I deal with situations, people, hard times, even good times? I plough through it until it gets better. I may melt down a time or two, but I don't rely on, I hate to say this, "sky fairies" to see me through. I prayed a lot when I was a Christian but when is it ever enough? Why do you suppose that prayers don't get answered, ever? Because it falls on deaf ears. Or no ears, that's more like it.
I sort of wonder...if you, and other atheists had a different kind of 'training'...that is, that a "God is merciful" teaching, instead of "God-will-condemn-you-if-you-do-the-slightest-thing-wrong" kind of teaching, if you'd ever become an atheist at all...?
It is hard to say. A more loosely-held abstraction might not have leaked so much or set such high expectations by implicitly and explicitly PROMISING me so much. If I had possessed more realistic expectations of god, religion, and life in general, who knows. However, it may also simply have "petered out" in less spectacular fashion.
The problem with questions like that is that if I had been, say, a liberal Christian or a (non-trad) Catholic, I would have also been a significantly different person and would have had significantly different experiences along the way. I very likely would have married differently, for example, particularly with respect to my first marriage.
One thing I would still be either way is a relatively heady / thoughtful / curious sort of person and I tend to think that the logical contradictions in even less illiberal Christianity would have eventually been something I'd have bumped into.
I tend to think of my atheism as at the end of a causal chain involving my personality, upbringing, experiences and the utility / workability of my particular religious beliefs. Changing one of those things would also change many of the others, in unpredictable ways.
I sort of wonder...if you, and other atheists had a different kind of 'training'...that is, that a "God is merciful" teaching, instead of "God-will-condemn-you-if-you-do-the-slightest-thing-wrong" kind of teaching, if you'd ever become an atheist at all...?
I had a 'Jesus loves you' teaching, and the Jesus I was taught about when I was a child is the Christianity I would want to be true. But I still became an atheist, because the idea of God just made no sense, and it raised so many questions the adults could not rationally answer, only assert (as if they were inventing the answers as they did when asked how Santa's reindeers fly). It was only afterwards I realized just how evil the god described in the OT would be, and how many of the teachings attributed to Jesus are not very good.
I'm talking about ANYTHING outside of religion. Learning about the world around us besides living in a bubble of rules and regulations about what you cannot do. I think everyone else understood what I meant.
I think one reason I maintained religion in the face of disbelief or doubt, is that I recognized the usefulness of authority. Not that I am a "respect mah authoritay" type person, but rather I saw how society is built upon basically a bluff, that the rulers cannot be deposed, the young must serve the old, etc. When in reality the rulers are greatly outnumbered and the old are frail.
I feared the tumult that would happen by calling the bluff. Which is not unreasonable, given that social disruption always has nasty collateral damage. I am a peaceful person by nature, and much more inclined to evolution than revolution, so I kept my peace about religion for a long time.
I am also a non-violent person who is hard-working, and I knew enough history to know that people like me are the patsies of history. Everyone wants to take the stuff we make and we don't fight back. I knew early on that the rule of law was my only guarantee of happiness, so I did not want to rock the boat and undermine authority. I seemed to prosper under the current system and thought an alternative would be worse.
This was some just barely conscious thought process where I knew religion was bunk but I also feared its absence. In retrospect that was primarily a failure of imagination, in that I struggled to imagine how the bluff could be called peacefully. As time went by though and more and more people called the bluff without society destabilizing I became more outspoken.
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