The Bible vs. 'THE' bible.... (Baptist, Catholics, Christianity, God)
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It's not that we're "stupid" or "arrogant." But I DO sometimes believe that some of us think we're 'smarter' than we actually are.
I don't remember who said the following quote: "The more I learn, the more I realize, how little I know." I find that to be very true in my own life. My late husband once told me that he believed that when he got into the 6th grade, he believed that he already learned as much as he needed to know in life. After that, he lost interest in learning anything else.
To switch gears for a moment...
I've read a great deal about Helen Keller. I have great admiration for her and what her accomplishments were, despite her handicap(s). I recall her writing that when she 'discovered God', she was overjoyed. She wrote (paraphrasing) that she "always knew there was something 'bigger than her' out there." And even though I have my sight/hearing, I felt the same way, at a fairly young age. I just see too much...what's the word I'm looking for...synchronicity? To me, it's far from being all "random."
LOL! Your post reminds me of a Reader's Digest article I read many years ago. In a nutshell, a woman had lunch with a friend and listed out her complaints. He asked her if she ever considered appealing to God. She didn't. He told her what he did on a daily basis. He woke up early in the morning, and sat in silence, waiting on God. At first, she protested, "I wouldn't get that much sleep if I woke up that early! I'd get sick!" He told her that he's been practicing the same routine for about a decade...and hasn't been sick during that time.
She decided to take his advice. So, she woke up early the next day, and stumbled into her living room. Closed her eyes and asked, "God, if you're there, please let me know." Within a few moments, she describes how she felt the most profound sense of PEACE. She described how tearful she was, because she felt the presence of God's love for humanity. That feeling stayed with her for several days (I had a similar experience that I've described here several times). She kept up the practice, and went on to say, that some days, she doesn't feel that same...sense. But on those days, she feels like she's in God's "waiting room."
I also, don't feel that 'sense' every day. But when I DO feel it, it's indescribable. Human words don't give it justice. It's not the kind of peace one might find while reclining on some beach in the South Pacific. It's not the kind of love one might feel for a spouse, a lover or a child. It's so much more than that.
And once you feel it, you don't want to let it go. I get that I'm not going to feel it every day. But it gives me a promise of what we have to look forward to.
And to me, it's worth all the 'pain and suffering' we go through.
I'm not into methodology, because it isn't the method to be worshipped. Many times in Genesis it says God appeared to a person and they made an Altar and called that place by a description of what took place. And then moved on from there and walked it out, to bring the knowing home. As I consider Jacob when he fled from Esau's death threat.
In knowing when God is speaking, you must also learn God's silence, and know discernment, because after the message is given comes the time of walking it out. Walking through the silence is entrustment and the time of drawing upon what was imparted, and many times it is tested, but not by God, it is tested by this fallen world. As Jesus Christ said, when God's word is imparted, the Satan comes to confuse and steal that word.
You inspired me to do a little more searching, though I have done this sort of search more than a few times before as this subject comes up one way or another again and again in this forum...
"The sensory presence of gods and spirits is central to many of the religions that have shaped human history—in fact, many people of faith report having experienced such events. But these experiences are poorly understood by social scientists and rarely studied empirically. We present a multiple-discipline, multiple-methods program of research involving thousands of people from diverse cultures and religions which demonstrates that two key factors—cultural models of the mind and personal orientations toward the mind—explain why some people are more likely than others to report vivid experiences of gods and spirits. These results demonstrate the power of culture, in combination with individual differences, to shape something as basic as what feels real to the senses."
"We develop a new model of how human agency-detection capacities and other socio-cognitive biases are involved in forming religious beliefs. Crucially, we distinguish general religious beliefs (such as God exists) from personal religious beliefs that directly refer to the agent holding the belief or to her peripersonal time and space (such as God appeared to me last night). On our model, people acquire general religious beliefs mostly from their surrounding culture; however, people use agency-intuitions and other low-level experiences to form personal religious beliefs. We call our model the Interactive Religious Experience Model (IREM). IREM inverts received versions of Hyperactive Agency-Detection Device Theory (HADD Theory): instead of saying that agency-intuitions are major causes of religious belief in general, IREM says that general belief in supernatural agents causes people to seek situations that trigger agency-intuitions and other experiences, since these enable one to form personal beliefs about those agents. In addition to developing this model, we (1) present empirical and conceptual difficulties with received versions of HADD Theory, (2) explain how IREM incorporates philosophical work on indexical belief, (3) relate IREM to existing anthropological and psychological research, and (4) propose future empirical research programs based on IREM."
None of which provides the specific data you are wondering about, but I'm not sure those percentages have ever been established by any study. None I've been able to find anyway. No doubt difficult to come by given all the many versions of what transcendental or paranormal experiences might mean to one person verses another, but some interesting explanation for some of these experiences in any case.
Very interesting links, thanks. I will be reading those more closely.
I do think that much the utility of religion for individuals boils down to whether or not they have subjective experiences like this. Some do, easily and consistently; others little or not at all; and of course every gradation in between.
I wonder if any studies have been done concerning what percentage of believers have these transcendent experiences of of connection to god (or to life / the universe / cosmic consciousness or whatever they are conceiving it as) -- and how often throughout life. My suspicion is that it's a low percentage and the rest just assume they're supposed to have these experiences and will, someday.
I recall this awkward tradition at Wednesday Night Prayer Meeting, where people were supposed to testify to what god had done in their lives that week. Because, you know, implicit in this "ask" is that god of course must have done something recently because that's the way it's supposed to work.
There was always a very long "I don't want to go first" silence and then usually one of the elders would kick it off with some vague narrative of how they had "felt blessed" or "felt god's presence" or guidance in recent days. Others would follow with increasingly forlorn or frantic efforts of their own. But it all felt some combination of forced or contrived, except for once in a blue moon when someone had a Really Good Week, and some synchronicity made them feel cared for / valued by god. Needless to say, the rest of us would desperately lap up such testimonies. We were thirsty people in a dry desert.
None of this is to pass judgment one way or the other so much as to observe that this kind of warm-fuzzy feeling is not widely accessible in my experience. There's always the possibility we were Doing It Wrong, of course, but the mystical sort of Christian experience seems to be at best no more prevalent than the so-called Dark Night of the Soul, where one desperately seeks for god because of either pressing need or the loss of formerly feeling this connection, and gets zilch. Mother Theresa for example famously suffered from this during most of her adult life. I guess she gets props from Catholics for persevering rather than giving up -- after all, she's been sainted -- but she's not exactly a poster child for the benefits of seeking god, either, unless you can really believe that these things will come to you in the next life.
I know that to some, religion is a cornucopia of benefits. I just was never one of them. And of course this superficially fits the narrative / circular argument that I never really WAS a True Christian(tm). So it goes ...
Interesting post.
When I was still working I had a little ritual that I tried to go through once a week. And that was on Friday afternoon after getting home I would sit down and ask myself to write down on a piece of paper the things that I had done that week -- beyond the requirements of my job -- that had helped individuals or groups -- a student, a colleague, or someone outside of work. Something on a personal level. And if I came up relatively empty that week, then the following week I would have as a goal paying attention to reaching out to others. Sometimes I did quite well, other times I didn't. But in the end...and I am nearing the end...I can look back and say to myself, "I made a difference". And it isn't just my ego talking, it's in the students who still keep in touch, it's in the students who have traveled to visit, it's in the colleagues who keep in touch. Nevertheless, I still look back on some things and remind myself that in some particular regard I didn't do a very good job and wish I could do some things over again...but differently.
I always get a laugh when people act like psychologists and stand there thinking they can figure me out.
When I consider having a name written in the Book of Life, what I love about that is that it means that God knows me. Just as the twelve tribes are presented on the High Priest's vestment in the presence of God.
After reading this forum for a few years, I've read many a time, when someone quotes from "the Bible." Now," I put "Bible" in quotes and capitalize the "B" because of what I was taught..."
But I read about people talking about "THE" bible, as if the one in their possession is the ONLY one. The one with 66 books...
I've seen people debate back and forth about how something they're debating about "isn't in the bible".
Yet I think, WHOSE bible? I mean, I'm Catholic, so I have a Catholic Bible...which includes the other books that are often left out of the KJV...and then some.
And yet, the very things they argue about are THERE, in the Catholic books.
I don't get it.
That's interesting, I didn't know about the Catholic bible containing other books I should look into that. Not that it would sway me, I'm just interested in all things religion because most of my life that's all I knew and I've always wanted to learn more about others and their religions outside of Fundamentalism.
My Dad was very adamant and quite angry about anyone using anything other than the KJV. So when I think of scripture, it's always the KJV that comes to mind because of his insistence of KJV-onlyism. I've mentioned him before several times, he was quite insane, and many years ago he took me to a Christian book store to buy me a KJV study bible.
There was a nice saleslady that came over to help and the minute she suggested the NIV, he went off. He argued with her right there in the store, I couldn't have been more embarrassed. It was like an Alfred Hitchcock movie, the camera zoomed in and I knew this was it. I'd had enough of it and I never spoke to him again until he was dying. It really didn't have a lot to do with his rantings about religion, just the toxicity.
The above is why Catholicism is unacceptable to Fundamentalists. You are not considered Christians to them. Don't even try to figure that one out, you'll drive yourself crazy. It is the single-mindedness and superiority beliefs that make them act like they do. The reason Fundamentalists argue about THE Bible is because you're wrong, they're right and you're going to hell for your heresy.
I will be buying a Catholic bible, if I can find one in Fundamentalist Hickville. May have to turn to Amazon.
When the KJV was first published, the books sometimes considered canonical were published as The Books Of The Apocrypha, and placed between the Old and New Testaments. You can find there here:
There are literally dozens of other books that were not included in the various compilations. Noteworthy among those not used are the Gospel of Thomas, from which an entire religion in India developed, and the book of Enoch, which was cited more than once in the Bible.
We've had people in this forum over the years that quoted extensively from Enoch and Maccabees.
That's interesting, I didn't know about the Catholic bible containing other books I should look into that. Not that it would sway me, I'm just interested in all things religion because most of my life that's all I knew and I've always wanted to learn more about others and their religions outside of Fundamentalism.
My Dad was very adamant and quite angry about anyone using anything other than the KJV. So when I think of scripture, it's always the KJV that comes to mind because of his insistence of KJV-onlyism. I've mentioned him before several times, he was quite insane, and many years ago he took me to a Christian book store to buy me a KJV study bible.
There was a nice saleslady that came over to help and the minute she suggested the NIV, he went off. He argued with her right there in the store, I couldn't have been more embarrassed. It was like an Alfred Hitchcock movie, the camera zoomed in and I knew this was it. I'd had enough of it and I never spoke to him again until he was dying. It really didn't have a lot to do with his rantings about religion, just the toxicity.
I'm laughing because your dad's attitude was all too familiar to me! My grandmother would have had a fit if someone even suggested that there was something 'wrong' with the Catholic church! Talk about "toxicity"!!
Quote:
The above is why Catholicism is unacceptable to Fundamentalists. You are not considered Christians to them. Don't even try to figure that one out, you'll drive yourself crazy. It is the single-mindedness and superiority beliefs that make them act like they do. The reason Fundamentalists argue about THE Bible is because you're wrong, they're right and you're going to hell for your heresy.
I will be buying a Catholic bible, if I can find one in Fundamentalist Hickville. May have to turn to Amazon.
I didn't realize that Catholics aren't even considered to be Christian to Fundamentalists! But I'll take your word for it, and your advice...and I won't spin my wheels trying to figure it out!
If you decide to get a Catholic bible, as a suggestion, the one I used for a long time was the St. Joseph Edition of the New American Bible (NAB)-Revised Edition. I bought it years ago, in paperback form, and back then it cost me about $12.00. I imagine today it would cost between $15-20.
When the KJV was first published, the books sometimes considered canonical were published as The Books Of The Apocrypha, and placed between the Old and New Testaments. You can find there here:
Yes. I have heard (and seen) that KJV will place the non-canonical books where you said. I've also seen them placed at the end of the NT, as well as leaving them out completely. So, it really just depends on the version of the KJV one gets.
Quote:
There are literally dozens of other books that were not included in the various compilations. Noteworthy among those not used are the Gospel of Thomas, from which an entire religion in India developed, and the book of Enoch, which was cited more than once in the Bible.
We've had people in this forum over the years that quoted extensively from Enoch and Maccabees.
Oh, absolutely! One thing I like about the Catholic church is that it's not Sola Scriptura. In the preface of my bible, some of the other non-canonical books are mentioned. The Church encourages us to read those books for information.
I'm laughing because your dad's attitude was all too familiar to me! My grandmother would have had a fit if someone even suggested that there was something 'wrong' with the Catholic church! Talk about "toxicity"!!
Good for you for surviving your grandmother Isn't it bizarre how Catholics are Christians yet Fundies don't see it that way at all? At least around here. You know where the term "bible belt" originated from? Yep, from right here. Anybody seen "The Righteous Gemstones" on HBO Max? There you go. They're not wrong, it's pretty damn accurate and funny as crap. Bad language though, not many will appreciate that. Sorry, don't watch it, I forgot who I was talking to
Quote:
I didn't realize that Catholics aren't even considered to be Christian to Fundamentalists! But I'll take your word for it, and your advice...and I won't spin my wheels trying to figure it out!
I would not joke about a thing like that, I am dead serious because that is exactly what my entire religious family thought. Funny though, guess who I married? Yep, Catholic AND Polish....need I say more? My Dad used to make Polish jokes while my husband was present, he really thought it was funny. My ex would just laugh along with my Dad's stupid jokes, he didn't really care. How completely and brazenly disrespectful.
Quote:
If you decide to get a Catholic bible, as a suggestion, the one I used for a long time was the St. Joseph Edition of the New American Bible (NAB)-Revised Edition. I bought it years ago, in paperback form, and back then it cost me about $12.00. I imagine today it would cost between $15-20.
Great, thank you. Yes, I've heard of the NAB but I never knew a single thing about Catholicism until I talked to people on CD and started my journey. My ex was a, how did Mordant put it(I think it was Mordant) something about non-practicing Catholics but it was clever how he phrased it. Help me out here Mordant.
Great, thank you. Yes, I've heard of the NAB but I never knew a single thing about Catholicism until I talked to people on CD and started my journey. My ex was a, how did Mordant put it(I think it was Mordant) something about non-practicing Catholics but it was clever how he phrased it. Help me out here Mordant.
Always happy to help a fellow traveler, but I can't recall that particular moment of cleverness, I'm afraid!
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I'm laughing because your dad's attitude was all too familiar to me! My grandmother would have had a fit if someone even suggested that there was something 'wrong' with the Catholic church! 
Talk about "toxicity"!! 
Isn't it bizarre how Catholics are Christians yet Fundies don't see it that way at all? At least around here. You know where the term "bible belt" originated from? Yep, from right here. Anybody seen "The Righteous Gemstones" on HBO Max? There you go. They're not wrong, it's pretty damn accurate and funny as crap. Bad language though, not many will appreciate that. Sorry, don't watch it, I forgot who I was talking to
My ex would just laugh along with my Dad's stupid jokes, he didn't really care. How completely and brazenly disrespectful.
