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So you say you follow Jesus, do you believe Jesus when he tells us most people are going to hell?
Chapter and verse please Jesus says most people are going to hell.
Secondly what is hell?
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Yes you give your same vague answers over and over, so I have to keep questioning you to try and figure out why you believe what you do.
Pot meet kettle
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Well you may believe Hell is a mythical place, but Jesus never taught that.
Care to prove that
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And it obvious to me you do not follow Jesus, or you would believe what he taught.
Show us where to be saved we must believe in your hell?
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And if you do the math, the Bible tells us the exact year Israel would be re-established. Did you miss that?
Yes and the "this generation" of Matthew +40 years meant 1988 was the return, came and went, then it was changed to a jubilee generation aka 50 years 1998 came and went then it was 1967 war plus a generation 2007 came and went.
So oh "great guru", when is the next great disappointment due seeing the prophetic time clock of Israel has failed so miserably?
If 1948 was a prophesy fulfilled then ALL Jews should now be in Israel yet most of them still live in the USA Why is that do you think?
Most prophesies in the bible are no better than Nostradamus as they are mostly reverse engineered to fit. I mean you even take parts of Jeremiah to mean America go figure.
Chapter and verse please Jesus says most people are going to hell.
Secondly what is hell?
Pot meet kettle
Care to prove that
Show us where to be saved we must believe in your hell?
Yes and the "this generation" of Matthew +40 years meant 1988 was the return, came and went, then it was changed to a jubilee generation aka 50 years 1998 came and went then it was 1967 war plus a generation 2007 came and went.
So oh "great guru", when is the next great disappointment due seeing the prophetic time clock of Israel has failed so miserably?
If 1948 was a prophesy fulfilled then ALL Jews should now be in Israel yet most of them still live in the USA Why is that do you think?
Most prophesies in the bible are no better than Nostradamus as they are mostly reverse engineered to fit. I mean you even take parts of Jeremiah to mean America go figure.
Jesus speaking, stated In Matthew 7 verse 13 tells us that wide is the gate and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: In verse 14 Jesus tells us, "Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, WHICH LEADETH UNTO LIFE, AND FEW THERE BE THAT FIND IT.
Jesus speaks of Hell no less then 70 times in the New Testament, not once does Jesus say Hell is here on earth, Jesus does say it is a place we go after death unless we know Him, And it is a place of eternal torment. Your belife that Hell is here on earth is a human concept that is not taught in the Bible. In Luke 16:24 it states "I am tormented in this FLAME."
In Matthew 25:41 Jesus says: "Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting FIRE," Revelation 20:15 says, "And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the LAKE OF FIRE."
People who were not Christians have died on the operating table only to be brought back to life again have reported that they found themselves in a place of fire and torment. Often these people become christians shortly after such an experience. Their reports confirm the Biblical account, and not yours.
And where Jesus states this generation will not pass away untill all end prophecies will be fulfilled has nothing to do with 40 years, or 50 years, or any years. Those who have tried to put a number on such a prophecy do so incorrectly. Just take the verse without the spin, and it simply states that there will still be people alive from the generation that sees the rebirth of Israel. Another words, there will still be people alive when Jesus returns that were born in the year 1948.
And the reason Jermiah 50 and 51 is a prophecy that is about America is because it ties in with Revelation 18, and these prophecies together are fulfilled by America. No other nation on earth can fulfill these prophecies, because they are to detailed and only America can fulfill them.
I prefer substance over empty humanistic reasoning away of his stated truth.
The only way the Bible has substance if you take it literally, but in that case any book has substance. Heck, the more pages a book has the more substance it has.
The truth, like love, is an abstract construct so you can't touch it.
Originally Posted by Campbell34The only way the Bible has substance if you take it literally, but in that case any book has substance. Heck, the more pages a book has the more substance it has.
The truth, like love, is an abstract construct so you can't touch it.
Well, I see you gave a very detailed arguement refuting all that was stated. LOL
It should be obvious that Jesus Christ believed in Hell as a place of eternal torment, and warned people to avoid that place at all cost. Yet Jesus knew that most of the world would reject His warning, and His truth, and would end up going there for all eternity. Jesus Christ fulfilled all the prophecies of the Old Testament literally, and so it would only be natural that the rest of the prophecies of the Bible also would be fulfilled literally.
It should be obvious that Jesus Christ believed in Hell as a place of eternal torment, and warned people to avoid that place at all cost.
In the times that Jesus was still alive hell meant being an outcast. Why else do you think Jesus went to the underbelly of the city, where the criminals, prostitutes and the other ‘undesirables’ are?
Not to preach about hell and condemnation, but simply because he cared for everyone in need.
Jesus speaking, stated In Matthew 7 verse 13 tells us that wide is the gate and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: In verse 14 Jesus tells us, "Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, WHICH LEADETH UNTO LIFE, AND FEW THERE BE THAT FIND IT.
That has nothing to do with heaven or hell that is an interpretation you have.
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Jesus speaks of Hell no less then 70 times in the New Testament, not once does Jesus say Hell is here on earth, Jesus does say it is a place we go after death unless we know Him, And it is a place of eternal torment. Your belife that Hell is here on earth is a human concept that is not taught in the Bible. In Luke 16:24 it states "I am tormented in this FLAME."
70 times well please cite the scrip refs ch & vs will do. I only know of 12 and all they all are references to a defunct rubbish dump or the grave. In fact in context of stories only 8 times (see:
I have done an extensive study on this and I am curious where you get 70 from. Admittedly this is only found in the gospels and Paul NEVER teaches on HELL once. James is the only other place where one finds reference
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In Matthew 25:41 Jesus says: "Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting FIRE," Revelation 20:15 says, "And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the LAKE OF FIRE."
The LoF and the hell references are NOT the same. Furthermore the LoF is referred to in a book of symbols so you will need to show me what in Revelation is to be taken literal and what part allegorical.
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People who were not Christians have died on the operating table only to be brought back to life again have reported that they found themselves in a place of fire and torment. Often these people become christians shortly after such an experience. Their reports confirm the Biblical account, and not yours.
NDE's prove nothing. There are as many NDE's of heaven as hell but the hell ones are more colorful (red flames and all - sells more books) Furthermore if you are conditioned to believe in a literal hell in all likelihood you will have a hell NDE. The brain is too complex to simply assume what folk remember can be translated to reality. In the same way a vision or dream you have by no way means it reflects some universal truth, for U maybe yes but not for everyone.
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And where Jesus states this generation will not pass away untill all end prophecies will be fulfilled has nothing to do with 40 years, or 50 years, or any years. Those who have tried to put a number on such a prophecy do so incorrectly. Just take the verse without the spin, and it simply states that there will still be people alive from the generation that sees the rebirth of Israel. Another words, there will still be people alive when Jesus returns that were born in the year 1948.
So when is the "this generation" defunct? 1948 + 70 (2018?) To my knowledge of biblical generations; it is 40 years and a jubilee generation is 50 years - both of those scenarios have already played out.
Thus the preterist POV appears more plausible as Jesus was addressing the folk at that time NOT us in the years 1948-2008. I have not ruled out a 2nd coming but the odds are definitely against it. The gap theory as been proven to be false IMO and all of Daniel's weeks are IMO fulfilled. The problem is folk still expect an earthly kingdom and of course I have seen the arguments for and against.
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And the reason Jermiah 50 and 51 is a prophecy that is about America is because it ties in with Revelation 18, and these prophecies together are fulfilled by America. No other nation on earth can fulfill these prophecies, because they are to detailed and only America can fulfill them.
Well I will comment on this later as I have to read it 1st and I am not up to it at present. I seriously doubt this as even here in SA there were folk that somehow thought the Afrikaner was the new Israelites and that SA was the promised land - I am guessing folk in America believe that too.
IMO all prophesy particularly the OT can only refer to Israel and IMO the destruction of the temple in 70AD was the passing of the age of the OT.
The other problem you sit with in the so called rebuilding of the temple there are no Levites left so how are they going to re-institute temple sacrifices? You don't think in this day and age a return to blood sacrifices is barbaric and will not sit well with animal rights activists. Needless to say the real estate is owned by the Muslims and they sure are NOT going to give it up w/o a WWIII as it is their 2nd most holy site.
You really need to study a bit more on Zionism and see it is they that have these plans NOT Orthodox Jews.
You are obviously looking for the image of the beast that all bow down to worship and I am guessing that part you take literally. The MoB in the form of an RFID chip I have shown using simple math is NOT possible as there is NO infrastructure world-wide to implement a Point of Sale system in much of the so-called 3rd world and to start implementing such a system will require funding (probably by the USA) which you folk cannot afford. Furthermore, what use will a chip in the hand of a starving black kid in Africa help when he/she cannot even currently buy food with the current cash based system. Hence you shall have to ensure that ALL THE WORLD is fed and that there is NO FAMINE anywhere before you will be able to implement this. I say you referring to the USA as I know of no other nation hell bent on apocalyptic end times as the USA is.
So w/o even using scripture to back up my POV, it is highly unlikely and improbable that the MoB will be a chip and impossible to implement. Furthermore this will take the total defeat of all Muslim countries and there are only two countries warring with them right now and that is the USA and Israel. All the allies of the willing have all but abandoned the war on terror like France, Australia and Britain. Sooo it looks like this will be a USA thing but I really do not think you stand a snowballs hope in hell in pulling it off. The next big prize is Iran and that is because the oil rich Zionist barons of the USA are hungry for more more more.
Well when the invasion happens and a few more 9-11's then maybe the USA will wake up to the reality. The world does not look on in ignorance and no you are NOT the heros of WWII today.
So possibly you may have a point with Jeremiah as I think the more the USA purport its current foreign policy in the mid-east, the more folk are just going to get pissed at you. At some point either the Americans will take back the liberty of your founding fathers or you will be sanctioned/invaded or both. Empires come and go - the USA is NO exception (BTW I do not hate Americans) There are many alliances being formed and are already in place with the old cold-war adversaries of the East.
Sorry to digress but this is the reality and most folk are looking for an escape that is not going to happen, there will be NO RAPTURE - that too is a myth. There is already an economical power shift to the east namely China and India who BTW outnumber the USA 1000:1
Just these 2 countries alone make up more than 50% of the world's population ±3.2Bn so who really has the capacity and/or resources financial or logistical to go chip all these folk?? Remember the USA only constitutes on 5% of the world population ±330M.
Do the math friend not feasibly possible not to mention the infrastructure which is nowhere as sophisticated as Europe/USA and even SA for that matter. Now I am sure Putin is NOT going to capitulate to some world economic cashless system! Seeing they have more oil resources and with the current oil price they are laughing all the way to the bank.
Best look at what is happening outside your borders and realise that all is not well in la la land.
That is the bleak picture.
Well believe it or not, there are many optimists that see hope for the world at large. As the global village shrinks, we are becoming more aware of our distant neighbors. Wouldn't it be nice if the USA championed the cause for equality seeing they claim 80% to represent Christ and beat their swords into plowshares and stopped wasting money on space stations - maybe then we shall see the manifestation of sons and the feast of tabernacles and not in the fairy stories your churches have taught you.
Looking forward to the day when all nations will be able to live in peace and hold hands. Jesus came to show us the way. Time we started listening to His message and dump the religious garbage we are all so accustomed to. Not only did He leave us with a legacy, but He commissioned us to be activists not pew warmers and complacent fat cats.
Originally Posted by Campbell34In the times that Jesus was still alive hell meant being an outcast. Why else do you think Jesus went to the underbelly of the city, where the criminals, prostitutes and the other ‘undesirables’ are?
Not to preach about hell and condemnation, but simply because he cared for everyone in need.
If Jesus was only talking about being an outcast, he would of not told the people that hell would be experienced after death. Jesus Christ makes it very clear that this is an eternal punishment, that all will experience unless they give their life to him. Numerous people that were not Christians who had near death experiences have talked about being in hell and seeing such a place. Their experiences only confirms what Jesus already has told us. Hell awaits all people who die without Christ.
That has nothing to do with heaven or hell that is an interpretation you have.
70 times well please cite the scrip refs ch & vs will do. I only know of 12 and all they all are references to a defunct rubbish dump or the grave. In fact in context of stories only 8 times (see:
I have done an extensive study on this and I am curious where you get 70 from. Admittedly this is only found in the gospels and Paul NEVER teaches on HELL once. James is the only other place where one finds reference
The LoF and the hell references are NOT the same. Furthermore the LoF is referred to in a book of symbols so you will need to show me what in Revelation is to be taken literal and what part allegorical.
NDE's prove nothing. There are as many NDE's of heaven as hell but the hell ones are more colorful (red flames and all - sells more books) Furthermore if you are conditioned to believe in a literal hell in all likelihood you will have a hell NDE. The brain is too complex to simply assume what folk remember can be translated to reality. In the same way a vision or dream you have by no way means it reflects some universal truth, for U maybe yes but not for everyone.
So when is the "this generation" defunct? 1948 + 70 (2018?) To my knowledge of biblical generations; it is 40 years and a jubilee generation is 50 years - both of those scenarios have already played out.
Thus the preterist POV appears more plausible as Jesus was addressing the folk at that time NOT us in the years 1948-2008. I have not ruled out a 2nd coming but the odds are definitely against it. The gap theory as been proven to be false IMO and all of Daniel's weeks are IMO fulfilled. The problem is folk still expect an earthly kingdom and of course I have seen the arguments for and against.
Well I will comment on this later as I have to read it 1st and I am not up to it at present. I seriously doubt this as even here in SA there were folk that somehow thought the Afrikaner was the new Israelites and that SA was the promised land - I am guessing folk in America believe that too.
IMO all prophesy particularly the OT can only refer to Israel and IMO the destruction of the temple in 70AD was the passing of the age of the OT.
The other problem you sit with in the so called rebuilding of the temple there are no Levites left so how are they going to re-institute temple sacrifices? You don't think in this day and age a return to blood sacrifices is barbaric and will not sit well with animal rights activists. Needless to say the real estate is owned by the Muslims and they sure are NOT going to give it up w/o a WWIII as it is their 2nd most holy site.
You really need to study a bit more on Zionism and see it is they that have these plans NOT Orthodox Jews.
You are obviously looking for the image of the beast that all bow down to worship and I am guessing that part you take literally. The MoB in the form of an RFID chip I have shown using simple math is NOT possible as there is NO infrastructure world-wide to implement a Point of Sale system in much of the so-called 3rd world and to start implementing such a system will require funding (probably by the USA) which you folk cannot afford. Furthermore, what use will a chip in the hand of a starving black kid in Africa help when he/she cannot even currently buy food with the current cash based system. Hence you shall have to ensure that ALL THE WORLD is fed and that there is NO FAMINE anywhere before you will be able to implement this. I say you referring to the USA as I know of no other nation hell bent on apocalyptic end times as the USA is.
So w/o even using scripture to back up my POV, it is highly unlikely and improbable that the MoB will be a chip and impossible to implement. Furthermore this will take the total defeat of all Muslim countries and there are only two countries warring with them right now and that is the USA and Israel. All the allies of the willing have all but abandoned the war on terror like France, Australia and Britain. Sooo it looks like this will be a USA thing but I really do not think you stand a snowballs hope in hell in pulling it off. The next big prize is Iran and that is because the oil rich Zionist barons of the USA are hungry for more more more.
Well when the invasion happens and a few more 9-11's then maybe the USA will wake up to the reality. The world does not look on in ignorance and no you are NOT the heros of WWII today.
So possibly you may have a point with Jeremiah as I think the more the USA purport its current foreign policy in the mid-east, the more folk are just going to get pissed at you. At some point either the Americans will take back the liberty of your founding fathers or you will be sanctioned/invaded or both. Empires come and go - the USA is NO exception (BTW I do not hate Americans) There are many alliances being formed and are already in place with the old cold-war adversaries of the East.
Sorry to digress but this is the reality and most folk are looking for an escape that is not going to happen, there will be NO RAPTURE - that too is a myth. There is already an economical power shift to the east namely China and India who BTW outnumber the USA 1000:1
Just these 2 countries alone make up more than 50% of the world's population ±3.2Bn so who really has the capacity and/or resources financial or logistical to go chip all these folk?? Remember the USA only constitutes on 5% of the world population ±330M.
Do the math friend not feasibly possible not to mention the infrastructure which is nowhere as sophisticated as Europe/USA and even SA for that matter. Now I am sure Putin is NOT going to capitulate to some world economic cashless system! Seeing they have more oil resources and with the current oil price they are laughing all the way to the bank.
Best look at what is happening outside your borders and realise that all is not well in la la land.
That is the bleak picture.
Well believe it or not, there are many optimists that see hope for the world at large. As the global village shrinks, we are becoming more aware of our distant neighbors. Wouldn't it be nice if the USA championed the cause for equality seeing they claim 80% to represent Christ and beat their swords into plowshares and stopped wasting money on space stations - maybe then we shall see the manifestation of sons and the feast of tabernacles and not in the fairy stories your churches have taught you.
Looking forward to the day when all nations will be able to live in peace and hold hands. Jesus came to show us the way. Time we started listening to His message and dump the religious garbage we are all so accustomed to. Not only did He leave us with a legacy, but He commissioned us to be activists not pew warmers and complacent fat cats.
Apologies for the rant
Gods third year will be around 2034, the people from 1948 would be about 86 years old. Trying to put a number on a generation is not what the text states. The text ONLY states that the generation in question will not of passed away. Another words there will still be some people alive from 1948 when Jesus returns. That's all the text is saying.
The orthodox Jews are training Levites as we speak for the restoration of the temple. They know who is to be in those positions.
The chip I believe will be used, but that will come after America's destruction. Russia and her allies will invade Israel, yet God will destroy five sixths of their army. Israel will be left intact, yet America will be destroyed in one hours time.
Jesus Christ makes it very clear that this is an eternal punishment, that all will experience unless they give their life to him.
Does this seem the action of a loving God to you? Or do you just never question God's actions?
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Just because you prefer legalism over thinking yourself, doesn't mean that everyone prefers what you favour.
Heck, the more pages a book has the more substance it has.
The truth, like love, is an abstract construct so you can't touch it.
Why else do you think Jesus went to the underbelly of the city, where the criminals, prostitutes and the other ‘undesirables’ are?
Or do you just never question God's actions?