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implicit in your statement is that you are more informed with factual, scientific, and are going through a full 360 degree analysis.....
Hi,
So..first you say I made claims - I refute them - now your saying those claims I made are 'implicit' - which all boils down to :
your reading into my statements and making claims for me?
In any case, we have a issue on the table and you seem to be going around it? I said there is now Vow around Smoking Pot, You said there was, and called me a moron to boot.
Now I am asking you to either prove your claim or admit your wrong.
The reason for this is I find you to be sorta deceitful, well bend the truth and facts, you let false statements about the practices go unchallenged, sort of a lie by omission. This becomes important because it then shades all your statements and the veracity of them. How much other spin, twisting is going on?
So would your care to straightened this out? factually and calmly -no name calling?
>>you see hypocrisy in this thread, yet you can't see it in your self-appointed master on your 'guru-led path.'
Nope. We'll let me put it this way - what ever issues, questions, I have so far found in either Sri Gary's teachings (tapes or books) or the 3rd party claims of Gary's personal behavior - I find I am able to 'set aside' so to speak.
Set aside, doesn't mean flat out ignore, it means well perhaps ignore for now. It means that so far any oddities I suspect are more due to my lack of understanding, my young, junior perspective. If there is a 'fault' in terms of understanding, its probably in me. I'm willing to take that attitude right now. I've had plenty of experience that it is true.
As you know I am a Moron as you say, so its likely I am the one more wrong and just don't have the proper perspective.
I suspect that if there was 'proof' of a different caliber in this thread, such as actually legal cases, DEA arresting people, a pregnant chela claiming Gary's the father, IRS breaking his door down - those kinds of things - id shift my thinking perhaps. Fortunately Gary and MP is clean as a whistle in this regard.
Also, if there was anti-Cult professionals making specific claims with actually data - that would also be data of another class. Though I also take several of these antiCult guys with a grain of salt. But again, none of this exists either.
A great deal of what we have here is simply religious differences, differences in beliefs. Like I for example don't believe at all there is any issue with how $ is charged, and that belief has nothing to do with MP, it was in me before MP, and in stating that I am not defending MP - others here see thats a prima faca indicator of a false master and give me **** for defending MP when I state it. It all boils down to differences in beliefs and nothing about establishing MP as a Destructive/Harmful cult.
So again, yes I see hypocrisy here, and not in MP, Sri Gary or the teachings at this point. To be fair, I've experienced more name calling, insults, demeaning behavior here then I have ever experienced in MP or from anyone in MP. And at the same time my love of everything around MP just grows. My respect for Gary and his ability to communicate these principles in ways I get, ability to run such an organization so cleanly, not without mistakes, for so long are one, but the teachings themselves are growing on me, the connection I get on the inner - all are getting more beautiful every day.
So giving these two contrasting experiences hate from you and others here, and growing love in MP - is it really surprising I am where I am?
Anyway, If your like to try and explain why I should be concerned that several people felt guilty and self-deprecating for smoking pot -I'm still listening.
"Many people can become offended when advice is offered. One should therefore be careful before beginning any conversation, and should not be persistent if anyone does not accept his views; nor should any attempt be made to convince the other person"
Hi, I am not sure how that applies to me or my presence here, if thats what you meant?
For me this place is on multiple levels. Intellectually I've interest, limited experience and several friends in AntiCult areas. I am also currently involved with two religious freedom/tolerance law suites that friends of mine are going through. Both types of areas are going on here in spades.
I am much less interested in debating religious beliefs, especially here where tolerance is very low. Though a significant portion of all that is attacked and demeaned here is simply differences in belief systems.
Yes there was at some point some effort to check out MP - but I'm past that - to be honest this place has added significantly to my love of MP, though I suspect I am an oddity in that regard.
So, despite everyones claims that I am defending MP - not my job, that I am teaching/channeling -not my job - nor am I even remotely capable of either - right now
That said, the instant I feel this place is pulling me away, my attention, affecting my walking the path, or get any inner message, or even an outer message form MP office - Ill be gone.
So, despite everyones claims that I am defending MP - not my job, that I am teaching/channeling -not my job - nor am I even remotely capable of either - right now
That said, the instant I feel this place is pulling me away, my attention, affecting my walking the path, or get any inner message, or even an outer message form MP office - Ill be gone.
Love you all
A
People sufficiently blinded by inner needs strong enough to shelter them from reality in self-defense of those inner needs are important to every scam artist and spiritual pimp. They are true believers . . . immune to reality . . . and will never be told to desist from defending their presumed "master." He couldn't hire a more willing stooge to front for him!
You are clearly the type of person who rather than listening when someone else is talking, you're just waiting for your turn to talk and thinking of what you're going to say next. I'll bet anything people in your life have pointed this out to you before.
No, actually quite the opposite. the fact that I may move quickly here, and sometimes skim and infrequently mis-read is not correlated to my interpersonal skills - though I guess I can see how in some simple way you could draw such conclusions. You actually have a penchant for taking one thing and extrapolating it to unsupported places - have you noticed this?
Quote:
You both believe you know more or are more aware than others, even though you are both largely clueless and not well-read.
You see no issue with making such conclusions? Can you prove I am clueless and not well read? Of course not but more to the point how does one deal with this kind of persistent 'factual conclusion' you put out, that are really just conjecture. One of the reasons I try to focus in on specific statements is I can't possibly address all of these 'conclusions', attacks, conjectures, etc. I suspect there is some intelligent name for your style of weaving this kind of stuff into the argument, side issues, detractors. perhaps you know it?
Quote:
It doesn't bother you that Gary's a right wing nutjob or that he thinks people lived with dinosaurs, etc.
What bothers me is that this has absolutely nothing to do with MP Being a destructive / harmful cult, yet this kind of personal opinion stuff is interwoven with such claims, as if it is proof.
Quote:
You rationalize this away as quirks of the "man" Gary. But the "man" Gary is supposed to be an enlightened and aware "living master"! Not just worldly knowledgeable, but other-wordily! He claims to know that which the rest of us cannot.
I find the claim that I rationalize away to be disingenuous, its your spin again. We have different views on what a Sat Guru 'looks like' - how does an enlighten person appear to others, what are the differences in Gary, Sri Gary, and Garji? Is there still 'personality' in the enlighten being ? Would such a man be perfect in his relationship with Wife, step kids?
I find these interesting questions at some level, of course any attempt to discuss them here is fruitless.
Quote:
Near the end of the bird flu tape, Gary mentions the name of a chela who had just died and says "she's doing just fine", that he was there when she "translated". So in addition to his inside knowledge of government secrets, etc., he wants you to believe that his spirit is in the other realms floating around having zany adventures, witnessing all that you can't see.
Sound silly, especially the way you spin it. Lets say it is silly, really silly, so? I'm sure you and I could joke about those silly Christians and how friggen silly the Pope is. Or hundreds of other silly religious/spiritual beliefs. Is that what this is about, screaming at others about how silly and stupid their beliefs are?
I think this is a working example of simply how much of your 'stuff' is simply your personal beliefs, and conjecture. Its more about belief systems then anything factual or destructive/harmful cults and all that.
Why are you so invested in this particular, very small in the scope of things spiritual group? Its almost personal with you?
People sufficiently blinded by inner needs strong enough to shelter them from reality in self-defense of those inner needs
I agree I guess, I agree that all of us have quirks of personality, some more the others. Some folks inner needs as you say cause them to rape children, and others work tirelessy to feed children and be seen as a hero.
But what I don't agree with is the assumption, the implication, that all MP chelas are driven by such needs, are all faulted by some deep need for love, etc. (as been said by others). Of course some are, MP chelas, Christians are just people and represent a cross section of all the strength and weaknesses of this human form. oOe of the things I respect about anyone like Sri Gary is the amount of phychological issues and personality quirks they have to deal with and navigate through.
Though to imply, by extension you didnt say specifically, that anyone following any Guru path - is a sycophant, deeply needed, psychologically unbalanced and hence blinded - is well just odd to me. By extension can we say that Atheists are mentally healthy and God or Guru followers are not?
Of course you didn't say that, I don't mean to draw conclusions you don't support - but I find your argument to paint with such a broad brush it looses credibility to me.
I wonder, do ex-chelas here support your point? would they all, or even most, say that they have or had hidden needs that made them seek out MP, be blinded? Are they healed now or are they still running around with these hidden needs?
I agree I guess, I agree that all of us have quirks of personality, some more the others. Some folks inner needs as you say cause them to rape children, and others work tirelessy to feed children and be seen as a hero.
But what I don't agree with is the assumption, the implication, that all MP chelas are driven by such needs, are all faulted by some deep need for love, etc. (as been said by others). Of course some are, MP chelas, Christians are just people and represent a cross section of all the strength and weaknesses of this human form. oOe of the things I respect about anyone like Sri Gary is the amount of phychological issues and personality quirks they have to deal with and navigate through.
Though to imply, by extension you didnt say specifically, that anyone following any Guru path - is a sycophant, deeply needed, psychologically unbalanced and hence blinded - is well just odd to me. By extension can we say that Atheists are mentally healthy and God or Guru followers are not?
Of course you didn't say that, I don't mean to draw conclusions you don't support - but I find your argument to paint with such a broad brush it looses credibility to me.
I wonder, do ex-chelas here support your point? would they all, or even most, say that they have or had hidden needs that made them seek out MP, be blinded? Are they healed now or are they still running around with these hidden needs?
With Love
That is an easy answer . . . it is no different than paying for a prostitute. If you have to pay for it . . . it isn't real. Looking for "whatever" . . . by buying it . . . is definitely indicative of what we are talking about.
Allan, I know you're asking end_of_faith and I certainly can't speak on her behalf, for she has the most knowledge and experience with MP of anyone here. But FYI I did post these quotes from Volume I a few pages back (maybe you missed them in your skimming).
"The true problem is not actually the substance being relied upon, rather the inability to extract value from life in a natural way. This natural way, while known by few, allows one's consciousness to easily and effortlessly transcend illustion without the aid of a chemical. And since it is natural, the spiritual approach to elevating one's consciousness is without the negative effects of artificially altering one's state, such as the loss of money, the eventual comedown, and the guaranteed humiliation thrust upon the user from the outside, or worse yet, from one's own inside, manifesting in guilt, repression, and a lack of inner harmony." p. 175
"So, in truth, substance abuse exists because the user knows nothing of the light or the Sound. The external substance may temporarily bring in more light, but it will also create more negative effects birthed from this errant cause.' p. 178-179
"The MasterPath condones none of these external substances, for they are hindrances on the Path of spirituality." p. 179
And then there's:
"There are certain requirements that must be fulfilled prior to the second initiation, for I will not grant this sacred gift to those who are dependent on drugs and alcohol..." p. 243
Obviously "dependent" can be a subjective term, but really ANYONE who feels the need or desire to use drugs and alcohol could be considered "dependent", no matter how often and how much they partake. No matter what, the MP books are crystal clear that drugs and alcohol hinder one's spirituality, and this is also huge in other light and sound paths too. Yet your "master" is a user.
And I'd just like to add that you are sounding really zombified. You're admitting that everything Gary does is excusable in your eyes, because you're assuming there must be some higher meaning you can't yet understand. Holy blinders! And you don't see that as precisely how a cult member thinks?! You have given up thinking for yourself and using your own moral compass.
Oh, and your "anti-cult friends"...who are they? We already know that your definition of "friend" is a little skewed to begin with. But I would seriously like to talk to these "anti-cult" friends of yours. Have they read the entirety of this thread, or listened to Gary's tapes (ie. bird flu), etc.? How could they possibly support MP?
Also, you keep saying how you're a "better Allan" because of MP. How? To me it just seems like you're "anesthetized Allan". Anesthesia feels good and all, but it's inauthentic and unhealthy.
While you're at it, please offer an example of the great wisdom you claim to be gleaning from Gary Olsen. Because every time I listen to him, I can't get over what a total imbecile he is. So it might help if you could offer a quote from him that exemplifies his "profound teachings". A quote that's not plagiarized, please.
No, actually quite the opposite. the fact that I may move quickly here, and sometimes skim and infrequently mis-read is not correlated to my interpersonal skills
It's not infrequent. It's continuous.
Quote:
Originally Posted by allan1015
What bothers me is that this has absolutely nothing to do with MP Being a destructive / harmful cult, yet this kind of personal opinion stuff is interwoven with such claims, as if it is proof.
There's a lot of evidence on this thread about MP being a destructive/harmful cult, and it's been laid out for you MULTIPLE times. But then there's also the accompanying evidence that Gary Olsen is a false guru, a fraud, a person of questionable integrity. That's also very relevant. And so are the obviously cult-ish characteristics of the chelas who've posted here, including you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by allan1015
I think this is a working example of simply how much of your 'stuff' is simply your personal beliefs, and conjecture. Its more about belief systems then anything factual or destructive/harmful cults and all that.
Again I ask you, what ARE my personal beliefs? Unlike you, I have no belief system to defend or protect.
Quote:
Originally Posted by allan1015
Why are you so invested in this particular, very small in the scope of things spiritual group? Its almost personal with you?
Well, as I've explained a few times on this thread, I've always been interested in cults - read many books, watched many documentaries, blah, blah, blah. It just so happens that the reading materials from MasterPath came across my radar many years ago, and thus I learned the dysfunction of this particular cult in greater detail.
Ultimately, many years later, I found this thread and discovered so much more about the human side of this cult and how the most brilliant, sincere, wonderful people were taken in. It did become an important learning experience for me. And now, as I think rememberingyou said, this is about social justice.
I suspect that if there was 'proof' of a different caliber in this thread, such as actually legal cases, DEA arresting people, a pregnant chela claiming Gary's the father, IRS breaking his door down - those kinds of things - id shift my thinking perhaps. Fortunately Gary and MP is clean as a whistle in this regard.
What about the 5th initiate chela who brutally murdered another chela?
What about the chelas who suffered and lost health, money, and general well-being due to your "master's" recommendations. Some of these chelas are elderly. How can you say they have not been harmed?
And from what I understand, the IRS doesn't break down doors. But how do you know they're not on the case right now?
Quote:
Originally Posted by allan1015
My respect for Gary and his ability to communicate these principles in ways I get, ability to run such an organization so cleanly
"Cleanly"?
Quote:
Originally Posted by allan1015
but the teachings themselves are growing on me, the connection I get on the inner - all are getting more beautiful every day.
So the Kool-Aid is delicious. As it always is in cults.
Hi,
So..first you say I made claims - I refute them - now your saying those claims I made are 'implicit' - which all boils down to :
your reading into my statements and making claims for me?
I didn't say "you made claims".... I stated the following:
Quote:
but then again, I don't think Allan needs or wants our pity or compassion since he is the ONLY ONE among us who has the facts, science, and 360 degree viewpoint...
so, Allan, given all your wisdom, knowledge, experience and evolved consciousness in perceiving "the truth".... please enlighten us all on the "esoteric truth" in the Bird Flu talk.... I await with bated breath...
I've hi-lighted the primary question for you in my statement....that you are either unable to answer or....perhaps it's due to the fact that there is no esoteric truth to be shared in the Bird Flu talk...
I posted the above in response to this statement by you:
Quote:
Originally Posted by allan1015 My reality is that my decision making is at least as informed as yours,if not more.
This is just one example of the hypocrisy of this thread, presenting itself as full of facts - yet in truth based primarily on subjective, personal beliefs.
What I find absolutely perverse about this is that these people claim THEY are the ones making INFORMED decisions - as if they are the ones going through a factual, scientific, full 360 degree analysis of things.
re: my choice of the word implicit im·plic·it adj.
· implied though not directly expressed; inherent in the nature of something; "an implicit agreement not to raise the subject"; "there was implicit criticism in his voice"; "anger was implicit in the argument"; "the oak is implicit in the acorn"
· Implied indirectly, without being directly expressed; Contained in the essential nature of something but not openly shown; Having no reservations or doubts; unquestioning or unconditional; usually said of faith or trust; entangled, twisted together en.wiktionary.org/wiki/implicit
· also known as tacit, knowledge resides in people's heads and is not easily written down. It is what we learn through cultural immersion, storytelling, and personal experience. Teachers often draw the most valuable lessons in training programs from real-life classroom stories of peers or mentors. ... lizlian.typepad.com/km_in_education/km_concepts/
· Implied by context, or the rules of a computer language, but not stated. In the following example, EMPLOYEE-DATA has an implicit (implied but not stated) picture of PIC X(20). See also explicit. www.podgoretsky.com/ftp/Docs/Cobol%20in%2021%20Days/apg/apg.htm
· implicit culture includes all invisible elements such as feelings, values, attitudes, beliefs etc. www.akteos.com/index.php
· suggested or understood without being directly stated. To imply is to suggest rather than to state. An incident can imply an idea that would otherwise have to be stated. eienglish.org/literms.html
In any case, we have a issue on the table and you seem to be going around it? I said there is now Vow around Smoking Pot, You said there was, and called me a moron to boot.
hopefully, the above re-posting of our exchange clarifies your issue. 'We' don't have an issue on the table. And I'm not going around it.
RE: 2nd initiation Vow: REPEAT: The chela must be drug-free. Obviously, you don't consider pot to be a drug.
I didn't call you a moron. I said: no use discussing the subtlety of other "chelas" experience with you since it is fairly obvious that you are a MasterPath Ox Resistant and refusing to "see" Opposing Nuemona that reveals your "master" as the hypocrite he is
Quote:
Originally Posted by allan1015
Now I am asking you to either prove your claim or admit your wrong.
The reason for this is I find you to be sorta deceitful, well bend the truth and facts, you let false statements about the practices go unchallenged, sort of a lie by omission. This becomes important because it then shades all your statements and the veracity of them. How much other spin, twisting is going on?
I have nothing to prove to you. And if it makes you feel better for me to say "sorry Allan for using the word implicit since according to you it is not applicable to your statement.." okay, sorry Allan for using the word implicit in reference to your knowledge, facts, science, and 360 degree analysis of MP.
You see, Allan, I find your 'spin' and superficial understanding of ex-chelas experience, their devotion and sincerity to be astonishing...and sad. I also could care less what you think of me Allan. You don't know me. You don't know my heart, mind, or soul.
I also could care less what you think of my 'veracity.' You should be far more concerned about the 'veracity' of your master than anyone on this thread.
Quote:
Originally Posted by allan1015
>>you see hypocrisy in this thread, yet you can't see it in your self-appointed master on your 'guru-led path.'
Nope. We'll let me put it this way - what ever issues, questions, I have so far found in either Sri Gary's teachings (tapes or books) or the 3rd party claims of Gary's personal behavior - I find I am able to 'set aside' so to speak.
Set aside, doesn't mean flat out ignore, it means well perhaps ignore for now. It means that so far any oddities I suspect are more due to my lack of understanding, my young, junior perspective. If there is a 'fault' in terms of understanding, its probably in me. I'm willing to take that attitude right now. I've had plenty of experience that it is true.
Lol...yup Allan...like a good chela you are learning to view 'oddities,' inconsistencies, questions, internal flags, etc as "due to your lack of understanding, young, junior perspective....we've all been there.
Quote:
Originally Posted by allan1015
So again, yes I see hypocrisy here, and not in MP, Sri Gary or the teachings at this point. To be fair, I've experienced more name calling, insults, demeaning behavior here then I have ever experienced in MP or from anyone in MP. And at the same time my love of everything around MP just grows. My respect for Gary and his ability to communicate these principles in ways I get, ability to run such an organization so cleanly, not without mistakes, for so long are one, but the teachings themselves are growing on me, the connection I get on the inner - all are getting more beautiful every day.
So giving these two contrasting experiences hate from you and others here, and growing love in MP - is it really surprising I am where I am?
Anyway, If your like to try and explain why I should be concerned that several people felt guilty and self-deprecating for smoking pot -I'm still listening.
Thanks for caring
A
Congratulations Allan. sounds like you're working hard on developing "your love for the master" ... ya know that 3rd is on the horizon for you...generally offered 18 months after the 2nd if you are a good boy...keep sending those IR's and monthly dues on time, and reporting your growing devotion to the MP office....hey, who knows this thread may have earned you a phone call or two from the "great master" himself.... listen closely Allan to hear truth that cannot be spoken by him.
and last.... I will repeat what I said in reference to your last statement: Gary may not feel guilt for smoking pot.... but I know "chelas" who have experienced major guilt trips and self-judgment for smoking pot because they believe he doesn't.... smoke that!
You are asking me to explain to you why you should be concerned. I never said 'you should be concerned,' so I have nothing to explain to you. People that understand will know exactly what is being said, and it will hold meaning and insight for them. Clearly, it means nothing to you.
Ask your "master" to explain it to you....petition your 'inner master' since your 'outer master' will not offer any depth of insight or truth on the subject. Like you, he'll deflect and deny. That is the truth that many of us know and you don't, Allan. It's really simple.
Last edited by end_of_faith; 09-20-2010 at 05:55 PM..
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Holy blinders! And you don't see that as precisely how a cult member thinks?! You have given up thinking for yourself and using your own moral compass.
