Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
You're skirting the issue. The issue is not whether they will return to Israel. This issue is how you spoke to Jewish people. You can ignore it all you want by redirecting, but what I say is still true. You should not have taken your big old finger and pointed it these people. BTW, your book is meaningless to me.
Well, it is (THEIR) Book. The one that (THEIR) scribes wrote. And in (THEIR) Book, we find God's low opinion of the Jewish people. So it was not I who pointed the finger at them, it was (THEIR GOD) of (THEIR) Book who pointed the finger. And it was (THEIR) scribes who wrote His comments. And I would not expect a Book of facts to be of any intrest to you. I'm not redirecting, I'm stating the facts.
Of course, the issue is the thread - why don't the Jews believe Jesus was the messiah. It's summed up in the Jew view that Jesus did not do certain things that the messiah is expected to do.
Christians of course say the Jews were mistaken. And I won't recap the harsh views posted here already.
The rocky history they had was, mainly, (If the recent history I read is correct - and the author is a reputable historian) because they felt their religion set them apart from the others of different religions and were always picking fights with the surrounding nations or rebelling against the big empires. Not surprisingly, they got a kicking quite often. The only way to explain that was to say thay they had been too tolerant. Their priests had allowed immigrant workers to worship in their own way instead of forcing them to convert or die. Kings had allowed their foreign treaty wives to continue their religion instead of forcing them to convert. The Jeremiahs couldn't lose. if they won, God got the credit. If they lost, the Jews got the blame.
No wonder Campbell can find tons of stuff to use against they Jews. Paul certainly did, and used it, not against the Jews as much as against their Law. The Law made sinners of them.
As to the return to Israel. That was always the dream of the diaspora Jews. It really only needed the will of the western nations to settle them there, willingly and the prediction fulfilled itself.
Perhaps the dire warnings of the End - time merchants will come about, but it will be because of religion mixed up with politics, but I see no reason to believe that it's Bible prophecy coming true.
So, do you believe Hitler killed 6 million Jews in order to encourage the fulfillment of Biblical prophecy? And did the world wait until the nations of the East could field an army of 200 million men, before allowing the Jews of our time to return to Israel? In order to fulfill Bible prophecy again. And did the Romans who destroyed all of Jerusalem, refuse to destroy Jerusalems East gate, in order not to interrpupt the flow of Bible prophecy? And did Muslims rebuild a new Porch Gate over the Gate the Romans did not destroy, just so a Bible prophecy they did not believe in, would be confirmed? And did the Muslims also seal up the East Porch Gate to make sure Bible prophecy would be fulfilled? And when Muslims twice tried to break through Jerusalems East Gate. Did they fail on purpose in order to prevent the Bible's prophecy from being destroyed?
After a while, you begin to understand, there is a lot more going on here then what some Jews desired in the past. Because much of the fulfilled prophecies, were out of the control of the Jews.
The reason I can find tons of stuff against the Jews, is because their own Bible and prophets are telling you in detail what is going to happen near the end of time. And somehow, you are thinking the prophecies of the Bible are fully directed by the desire of the Jews. And history will not support that view. Often, the prophecies of the Bible are being fulfilled by people, who are not even aware they are fulfilling the prophecies.
So, do you believe Hitler killed 6 million Jews in order to encourage the fulfillment of Biblical prophecy?
Balfour declaration 1917. You lose.
Quote:
And did the world wait until the nations of the East could field an army of 200 million men, before allowing the Jews of our time to return to Israel? In order to fulfill Bible prophecy again.
The Muslims have been able to field huge armies since Mohammed's time.
Quote:
And did the Romans who destroyed all of Jerusalem, refuse to destroy Jerusalems East gate, in order not to interrpupt the flow of Bible prophecy?
Wasn't that rebuit by the Byzantines?
(Later check) "Remains of a much older gate dating to the times of the Second Jewish Temple were found.[2] The present one was probably built in the 520s CE, as part of Justinian I's building program in Jerusalem, on top of the ruins of the earlier gate in the wall. An alternate theory holds that it was built in the later part of the 7th century by Byzantine artisans employed by the Umayyadkhalifs." Wiki
The Herodian gate was detroyed. The present one is Byzantine (Probably Justinian). The walls were rebuilt by the Muslims.
Quote:
And did Muslims rebuild a new Porch Gate over the Gate the Romans did not destroy, just so a Bible prophecy they did not believe in, would be confirmed? And did the Muslims also seal up the East Porch Gate to make sure Bible prophecy would be fulfilled? And when Muslims twice tried to break through Jerusalems East Gate. Did they fail on purpose in order to prevent the Bible's prophecy from being destroyed?
You are surely not taking the stone the builders rejected literally? Now I'm curious. What prophecy about sealing up the east gate?
Jesus! "Ezekiel 44:1-3 1 Then he brought me back to the outer gate of the sanctuary, which faces east; and it was shut. 2 And he said to me, "This gate shall remain shut; it shall not be opened, and no one shall enter by it; for the LORD, the God of Israel, has entered by it; therefore it shall remain shut. 3 Only the prince may sit in it to eat bread before the LORD; he shall enter by way of the vestibule of the gate, and shall go out by the same way."
That gate wasn't even built in Ezekiel's time. It was built by Herod. The gate of whatever Temple there was in Ezekiel's time was obviously opened when the temple had been rebuilt. Every day. Finally, the 'golden gate' is the rebuilt solomon's porch, in the outer east wall of the temple compound. If I am not mistaken Ezekiel is referring to the east door of the Temple, not of the temple compound. If this is supposed to be prophecy of present times, you will have to do far better.
Quote:
After a while, you begin to understand, there is a lot more going on here then what some Jews desired in the past. Because much of the fulfilled prophecies, were out of the control of the Jews.
After a while i begin to understand that, if you search long enough you can convince yourself that all sorts of stuff is prophecy. If you just search so far and no further. Be honest. You got this stuff from other prophecy - mongers and didn't check it, did you?
Quote:
The reason I can find tons of stuff against the Jews, is because their own Bible and prophets are telling you in detail what is going to happen near the end of time.
The reason you can find tons of stuff against the Jews is that there is nothing new under the sun (ecclesiastes). Power -hungry fanatics are ablte to denounce, threaten, bully and claim any misfortune (which often as not they goad the dupes into in the first place) as proof that God is dipleased with those they want to manipulate. It is nothing to do with prophecy - fullfillment.
[quote] And somehow, you are thinking the prophecies of the Bible are fully directed by the desire of the Jews. And history will not support that view.[quote]
It already has. See the Balfour declaration. You still lose.
Quote:
Often, the prophecies of the Bible are being fulfilled by people, who are not even aware they are fulfilling the prophecies.
I think you are being fooled by prophecy - mongers. Perhaps you should do a little checking. It didn't take me long to find how flimsy were the prophecies you mentioned here. I think you owe it to yourself to look at them a bit critically. I looked. Can you?
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 07-04-2009 at 04:22 PM..
Reason: golden gate check
This THREAD might shed some light on the initial post.
That was a good read. Interesting about the Epistle of Barnabas. I say this as so many of what are considered orthodox Christian beliefs or traditions actually come from apocryphal or gnostic sources. Even simple things that Christians believe have no direct connection to the canonized books. For instance, the crucifixion of Peter shows nowhere in the bible. Christians assume that John 21:18-19 speaks of this ("…when you are old you will stretch out your hands, and another will gird you and take you where you do not want to go"), but that is a massive assumption. It actually comes directly from the apocryphal book "Acts of Peter". A lot of Christian belief came from these reviled sources. I wonder if they still would still believe knowing where so much of their ideas actually came from? Dumb question, of course they would. They would ignore those facts and go on deriding the apocryphal and gnostic books that form so much of their faith. A bit of a conundrum that is best met with, "la, la,la I don't hear you", I suppose.
That was a good read. Interesting about the Epistle of Barnabas. I say this as so many of what are considered orthodox Christian beliefs or traditions actually come from apocryphal or gnostic sources. Even simple things that Christians believe have no direct connection to the canonized books. For instance, the crucifixion of Peter shows nowhere in the bible. Christians assume that John 21:18-19 speaks of this ("…when you are old you will stretch out your hands, and another will gird you and take you where you do not want to go"), but that is a massive assumption. It actually comes directly from the apocryphal book "Acts of Peter". A lot of Christian belief came from these reviled sources. I wonder if they still would still believe knowing where so much of their ideas actually came from? Dumb question, of course they would. They would ignore those facts and go on deriding the apocryphal and gnostic books that form so much of their faith. A bit of a conundrum that is best met with, "la, la,la I don't hear you", I suppose.
This is a very common thing in religion - to scandalize the mother that birth you.
[quote=AREQUIPA;9602632]Balfour declaration 1917. You lose.
The Muslims have been able to field huge armies since Mohammed's time.
Wasn't that rebuit by the Byzantines?
(Later check) "Remains of a much older gate dating to the times of the Second Jewish Temple were found.[2] The present one was probably built in the 520s CE, as part of Justinian I's building program in Jerusalem, on top of the ruins of the earlier gate in the wall. An alternate theory holds that it was built in the later part of the 7th century by Byzantine artisans employed by the Umayyadkhalifs." Wiki
The Herodian gate was detroyed. The present one is Byzantine (Probably Justinian). The walls were rebuilt by the Muslims.
You are surely not taking the stone the builders rejected literally? Now I'm curious. What prophecy about sealing up the east gate?
Jesus! "Ezekiel 44:1-3 1 Then he brought me back to the outer gate of the sanctuary, which faces east; and it was shut. 2 And he said to me, "This gate shall remain shut; it shall not be opened, and no one shall enter by it; for the LORD, the God of Israel, has entered by it; therefore it shall remain shut. 3 Only the prince may sit in it to eat bread before the LORD; he shall enter by way of the vestibule of the gate, and shall go out by the same way."
That gate wasn't even built in Ezekiel's time. It was built by Herod. The gate of whatever Temple there was in Ezekiel's time was obviously opened when the temple had been rebuilt. Every day. Finally, the 'golden gate' is the rebuilt solomon's porch, in the outer east wall of the temple compound. If I am not mistaken Ezekiel is referring to the east door of the Temple, not of the temple compound. If this is supposed to be prophecy of present times, you will have to do far better.
After a while i begin to understand that, if you search long enough you can convince yourself that all sorts of stuff is prophecy. If you just search so far and no further. Be honest. You got this stuff from other prophecy - mongers and didn't check it, did you?
The reason you can find tons of stuff against the Jews is that there is nothing new under the sun (ecclesiastes). Power -hungry fanatics are ablte to denounce, threaten, bully and claim any misfortune (which often as not they goad the dupes into in the first place) as proof that God is dipleased with those they want to manipulate. It is nothing to do with prophecy - fullfillment.
[quote] And somehow, you are thinking the prophecies of the Bible are fully directed by the desire of the Jews. And history will not support that view.
Quote:
It already has. See the Balfour declaration. You still lose.
I think you are being fooled by prophecy - mongers. Perhaps you should do a little checking. It didn't take me long to find how flimsy were the prophecies you mentioned here. I think you owe it to yourself to look at them a bit critically. I looked. Can you?
1. The prophecy of the Jews returning to Israel was made 2600 years ago. The Balfore Declaration was made 92 years ago. I don't see any loss here.
2. The prophecy states, the nations of the East. Not Muslims. And only since 1960, has China of the East stated they could field an army of that size. And they even gave the exact same number that was stated in the Book of Revelation. So the Bible was aware 2,000 years ago, that the nations of the East would have the ability to raise up an army of 200 million men, at the same time the Jews were back in Israel, and Jerusalem. There was no time in the past, when an army of this size from the East would of been possible.
3. The Herodian Gate was never destroyed, it was buried by the Romans. What Ezekiel saw in the vision, was not the Herodian Gate. He saw the Gate that was built on top of it. For the prophecy reads. He will enter by the (PORCH) of that gate. The only addition ever added to Jerusalems East Gate, is the Porch Gate we see today. And it was that Porch Gate that was sealed up, and remains sealed today. Just as the prophecy declared. And Ezekiel was not speaking of the East door of the Temple, and that should be obvious. Because Ezekiel said, it was the (OUTER GATE) of the sanctuary.
The only way you can dismiss Biblical prophecy, is if you are willing to ignore the details of the prophecies.
For there are three that bear record in Heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost; and these three are one.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
