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Yes, I agree, it is best to let everyone do their own research, including sincere asking of God if it is true or not. The Saints expect nothing less of their investigators and know that the real strength of the restored church, as it was in the early days, is the Spirit that attends it and the sure knowledge to be gained from God that it is of Him.
That is not research; that is self - brainwashing.
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Those who research official LDS media and talk to some of the millions of faithful Latter-day Saints all over the world will come away knowing the TRUTH about the re-established original Christian church. They can then in an informed manner choose to join or not. Those who study, as you obviously have, at anti-Mormon media that has little regard for truth will come away with the misinformed attitude that you display. It's that simple!
That is not research; that is self - brainwashing. Translation from Theist into english. Those who read only the official theist apologetics will likely be convinced. Those who research theist claims and then the other side and come to their own conclusions ought not to be fooled.
If you want to learn principles of engineering or art for example, would you go to textbooks that teach those subjects, or to the National Enquirer? If you want to learn about Catholics, where's the logic and common sense of asking a Baptist or Pentecostal, or worse yet a paid professional clergyman whose living and status depends upon keeping his flock in his pews? If you want to learn about the Lord, why ask the Devil for his opinion? If you want to learn about Mormons, why ask anyone except active faithful Mormons? Those are the ones you'll be associating with if you join, not apostates and enemies all with their own opinions.
But you miss the point I was making that Mormons DO want their investigators to do their own research, to attend our meetings and rub shoulders with real Mormons, to read the books in our canon, to reach a conclusion when they've done their homework, then to sincerely and humbly ask God Himself if their conclusion is true. That process does not require studying, as you suggest, at the feet of those whose obvious purpose is to deceive and mislead others about a religion they are not even an active member of.
Those who read The Book of Mormon: Another Testament of Jesus Christ with an open seeking mind and then ponder what they've read and sincerely ask God in the name of Jesus Christ if it is true, will come to know for themselves, as I have, that Joseph Smith is a Prophet of God and The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the re-established original Christian church. That personal testimony from God, and the Spirit that attends its meetings, is why the LDS Church is growing so rapidly around the world in spite of those, like yourself, who try to mislead others about us.
Katzpur, that was a pretty reasonable post to someone who appears to be losing it a bit.
Thank you. I try.
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Mormonism is as discreitable in its origins as Scientology. Known and demonstrable. And yet they continue to attract believers and money; lots of it. Dickering about the details of Mormon theology strikes me as pretty futile in view of the flimsy foundations of the faith.
Sorry you feel that way. I personally think that rather than just dismissing Mormonism as a faith with "flimsy foundations," it makes more sense to concede that even though you may not believe it's true, it does have a long enough history and has appeared to a wide enough cross section of people that there has to be something in it worth examining further. There are a lot of stupid, uneducated, naive Mormons. There are also a lot of intellegent, well-read, highly-educated Mormons. The same is true of Catholics, Lutherans, Muslims, Hindus and atheists. When looking at any religion, you have to consider what it is that draws people to it. For me, it's the doctrines. I can understand why it's hard for people to believe that Joseph Smith personally saw God or that an angel directed him to an ancient record hidden in a hillside. To me, the difficulties in accepting those events is almost beside the point. For me, the real draw of Mormonism is the doctrines and theology.
For me, the real draw of Mormonism is the doctrines and theology.
Yes, some are them are quite pretty. It's too bad they almost certainly aren't true. At least that is how I felt at the time it first occurred to me they weren't real. Now, I much prefer the beauty and wonder of a godless universe.
I am much more interested in what is true than what sounds nice.
Yes, some are them are quite pretty. It's too bad they almost certainly aren't true. At least that is how I felt at the time it first occurred to me they weren't real. Now, I much prefer the beauty and wonder of a godless universe. I am much more interested in what is true than what sounds nice.
Thanks for having the integrity to identify yourself as an atheist. No doubt the Christians on the board can respond to your posts more appropriately now.
Your journey was obviously not so much a rejection of your former Mormon faith as it was a process of convincing yourself that it was ok to abandon God. It's a choice some people make regardless of the religious denomination they happen to be affiliated with when they decide to turn their back on Jesus Christ and his atonement. I expect that you will find a lot of support for your new beliefs on the atheist forum, good luck with it.
Your journey was obviously not so much a rejection of your former Mormon faith as it was a process of convincing yourself that it was ok to abandon God.
Obviously, huh? Just trying to rationalize a pre-determined position, huh?
FYI, my disbelief was a 2-step process. Learning that Mormonism wasn't true did not mean Christianity was not true. I had to launch a separate investigation into the Bible.
Let me suggest a few books, "A History of God" by Karen Armstrong and "Misquoting Jesus" by Bart Ehrman. Of course, Christian apologetics are strong as well, so the thorough inquirer should read the apologetics as well. But, the strongest arguments and evidence will prevail in the mind of one fearlessly seeking the truth.
Once, I learned that the Biblical theology was also made up. The question of whether there is some sort of god still remained. I looked into the likelihood that a Creator god or Intelligent Designer exist and found that neither is very likely.
When I acknowledge a god of some sort might exist, I do it in the same way I acknowledge that fairies might exist. Both are highly unlikely, but there is always the possibility they might exist. They are human inventions, but might have analogs in reality, just not likely.
Let me tell you something, I wanted Mormonism to be real. I really did. I was convinced by the evidence against my will that it was a fraud. I didn't want to believe it was untrue. Let's imagine a woman who does not want to believe her husband is cheating on her, but she has no choice but to acknowledge it when faced with the evidence. Then some prick comes along and says to the woman, "You were just looking for a reason to not believe in him so that you could make it ok for you to leave him".
I'll pass on your books, thanks, you are living evidence of the kind of 'fruits' those writers produce. I doubt that you will convince many Christians on this board to partake of the fruit you offer, but of course you are entitled to try on appropriate threads.
It seems a bit odd though if you are truly converted to your new faith in godlessness that you apparently see a need to further rationalize or justify your choice to walk away from God and Jesus Christ by trying to convert others to your new belief?
It's my guess Huef that there are people waiting to give you a warm welcome at the godless atheist forum if you haven't yet introduced yourself there, you are certainly not writing in this thread to learn about Mormons!
I'll pass on your books, thanks, you are living evidence of the kind of 'fruits' those writers produce. I doubt that you will convince many Christians on this board to partake of the fruit you offer, but of course you are entitled to try on appropriate threads.
It seems a bit odd though if you are truly converted to your new faith in godlessness that you apparently see a need to further rationalize or justify your choice to walk away from God and Jesus Christ by trying to convert others to your new belief?
It's my guess Huef that there are people waiting to give you a warm welcome at the godless atheist forum if you haven't yet introduced yourself there, you are certainly not writing in this thread to learn about Mormons!
It is odd how applicable the comments you make about me fit you.
"It seems a bit odd though if you are truly converted to Mormonism that you apparently see a need to further rationalize or justify your choice by trying to convert others to your belief". What was that? You aren't actually trying to rationalize or justify your choice? What do you know, neither am I?
Your fruits are screaming right now and you probably have no idea how you are coming across.
Of course, I am not trying to learn about Mormons in this thread. I am teaching about Mormons and answering the questions they have (like that about garments). We are not supposed to attack individuals in this forum, but you keep doing it. I reply by sending your words right back to you.
I am welcome and acquainted with the atheist forum. This is the general "religion and philosophy" forum. If people have questions about Mormonism, I'll answer them.
I'll pass on your books, thanks, you are living evidence of the kind of 'fruits' those writers produce. I doubt that you will convince many Christians on this board to partake of the fruit you offer, but of course you are entitled to try on appropriate threads.
It seems a bit odd though if you are truly converted to your new faith in godlessness that you apparently see a need to further rationalize or justify your choice to walk away from God and Jesus Christ by trying to convert others to your new belief?
It's my guess Huef that there are people waiting to give you a warm welcome at the godless atheist forum if you haven't yet introduced yourself there, you are certainly not writing in this thread to learn about Mormons!
This is at least your second attempt to basically tell him to stop posting in this thread. Coercion is not pretty.
The title of this thread says "...learn about and discuss all aspects of Mormonism."
"All aspects", as I interpret it, includes the validity of Mormonism...or the complete LACK thereof.
I do not find his story about leaving Mormonism, his current beliefs, or the sources he used in that journey to be anything other than "the other side" of the LDS church and faith. His opinion and views have just as much of a right to be seen in this thread as do yours.
I am welcome and acquainted with the atheist forum. This is the general "religion and philosophy" forum. If people have questions about Mormonism, I'll answer them.
Strange how things work out! I never thought when I started this thread that even atheists would be trying to teach interested board members about the religious beliefs and practices of faithful members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. But at least there are some real Mormons on the board who are perfectly content with their beliefs and are prepared to respond to sincere inquiries truthfully.
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