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I think it's important to consider the time in which important scientific figures lived in so that we can take into account their upbringing, general knowledge of the time, and the views that were widely held during their lives that would have influenced them. There's no question that Isaac Newton was one of the greatest thinkers in history and advanced human knowledge considerably in his lifetime but he also lived in an age in which there was no alternative to religious teachings and science had not yet discovered evolution, the age of the universe, and other important facts that are well known today. I don't find it surprising that he was a man of his times who held beliefs that were common in his lifetime as almost everyone does. That's why I don't see his so called predictions as having any particular importance. I agree with Nea1 and believe that if a man with the intellect of Newton had been fortunate enough to have been born in modern times and would have been influenced by the knowledge that others had contributed to mankind in previous centuries he would have built upon that knowledge instead of wasting his intelligence on the superstitions that were common when he actually lived his life.
Of course his truthful predictions would not be important to anyone who denies their reality. And you said his belief was common? So then, are you saying it was a wide held belief in his time, that the Jewish people would be found in Israel in the 21st century. And that the Jewish people in this time would be in control of Jerusalem. And these Jewish people would be asking to have their temple rebuilt? And Newton also believe this would lead us into the time of the Great Tribulation. Are you saying this was a common belief in Newton's time?
Of course his truthful predictions would not be important to anyone who denies their reality. And you said his belief was common? So then, are you saying it was a wide held belief in his time, that the Jewish people would be found in Israel in the 21st century. And that the Jewish people in this time would be in control of Jerusalem. And these Jewish people would be asking to have their temple rebuilt? And Newton also believe this would lead us into the time of the Great Tribulation. Are you saying this was a common belief in Newton's time?
No, that's not what I'm saying. What I am trying to point out is that we should consider why a man with such an intellect would embark upon making elaborate predictions of a religious nature in the first place. I'm also saying that because he was raised in a society in which religion was such a powerful influence that it's not surprising that he would be influenced by it just like everyone else was. There were no competing scientific or philosophical ideas in those days to religion. People didn't have a clue how life began and I can understand why supernatural explanations were accepted and why someone like Newton might want to pursue such things as predicting the future. My main point is that I don't believe that a man born in modern times with such a great intellect would have any interest in such things.
No, that's not what I'm saying. What I am trying to point out is that we should consider why a man with such an intellect would embark upon making elaborate predictions of a religious nature in the first place. I'm also saying that because he was raised in a society in which religion was such a powerful influence that it's not surprising that he would be influenced by it just like everyone else was. There were no competing scientific or philosophical ideas in those days to religion. People didn't have a clue how life began and I can understand why supernatural explanations were accepted and why someone like Newton might want to pursue such things as predicting the future. My main point is that I don't believe that a man born in modern times with such a great intellect would have any interest in such things.
Well you could be right, because often modern man looks on science as a replacement for religion. Yet Newtons predictions were based on the prophecies of the Bible. And Newton was a Christian with an intellect. So why would you find it strange that Newton would make a serious study of the prophecies of the Bible? Now maybe you believe that science and modern thought has replaced the supernatural. Yet Newtons belief that the nation of Israel would exist in the 21st century, was both accurate and true. And why would you ignore that reality? If facts are important to you. Why would you ignore facts that support the supernatural? In fact, your entire arguement is based on (WHY) would Newton do this? While ignoring the truth of what he stated. When the truth is before you, it appears you want to redirect your arguement on the WHY, rather than acknowledge the reality.
There is no manipulation of Newton's Biblical perspective at all. I believe you are just upset that one of the worlds greatest scientist believed the Biblical account. And we have this in writing. And both Newton and I agree that the Jewish return to Israel and Jerusalem, is what the Bible prophecy foretold. Of course, Newton stated it would occur hundreds of years before it happened. I just acknowledged it's reality. What I find amazing, is how you guys can continue to ignore his written historical account, only because it confirms the Biblical prophecy. I would say your the one that has an agenda here, because you are ignoring Newton's own words. And now trying to blame me, for repeating them.
sounds like youu been smoking some mighty fine weed.
Well you dont know whether israel will still control jerusalem in 2060 or if jews will still be returning there in 2060 or rebuilding any temple or if there will even still be a country called israel in 2060.You are predicting issac newton was correct about something which you state that he said is still 50 years in the future.A lot can happen in 50 years.Its unlikely I'll still be around in 2060 to see if you're right.Its quite possible that in 3060 people will still be making the same predictions they are now.
It should be obvious, that if Israel is to have a temple in 2060, they would have to of already existed as a nation as they do today. And clearly the Bible tells us that God allowed the Jews to return to Israel, so He can use them as bait. And no doubt, Newton understood this as well. God is setting a trap for the nations that are opposed to this Jewish State. Because God is getting ready to reveal to both the Jews, and to the people of this earth, who He is. The fact that you can ignore that Newton (KNEW) that in the 21st century Israel would exist, that they would be in control of Jerusalem, and it's citizens would be demanding to have their temple rebuilt. Well, thats just evidence to me, your in a state of denial. Also I might point out, all of these prophecies must occur before the generation that was born in the year 1948 passes away. So you don't have to worry about people making such predictions in the year 3060.
I think Newtons whole views would change dramatically if he were alive today and saw just how far advanced science has come.
Yes, of course; the citizens of 200 - 300 years ago were, by their nature, engulfed in the mass hysterical beliefs of the day, so it's not uncommon for one of them to place an overlay of religious fervor on their pronouncements. Such as Darwin suffered under, to the extent of keeping his amazingly insightful and true thoughts quiet for some years before screwing up his courage enough to take on the stupid church. Glad he did though, but his reputation's been besmirched ever since by the idiot "thumper" crowd.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Campbell34
Why would Newtons Biblical view change, when it is obvious that Newton was correct about the return of the Jews to Israel, and Jerusalem? And their desire to rebuild their temple. A true scientist will acknowledge facts, and Newton was a true scientist.
Anyone with a small brain could "predict" the Jewish migration. That is not an incontrovertible prophesy, a word you have yet to look up, Tom. Scientists also do not make predictions about events 400 years in the future, so Newton wasn't being true to his scientific principles in that regard, now was he?
He was simply trying to get along with the predominantly Christian culture of the day. To avoid being a social outcast. Just as Darwin did initially.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ptsum
You know Campbell, I find a pretty amazing that you have to resort to such blatant manipulation of great scientific knowledge to further your own prophetic agenda.
He loves to argue with this false logic. It falls into that "Everyone who ate carrots, ever, will die!" sort of silliness.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Campbell34
There is no manipulation of Newton's Biblical perspective at all. I believe you are just upset that one of the worlds greatest scientist believed the Biblical account.
No-one's upset about that. We're just upset that you want us to take the next illogical step that a curious question-asker might also believe in the bible. Science is not a set of frozen-in-time facts, Tom; too bad for you and your usual specious arguments. It's simply a means to get answers reliably. Some can do it and accept the answers, others cannot and will not. Like you.
Our problem is not with the bible perse.. It's with the research results on so-called biblical facts. Whenever honest questioners look into The Ark, or 900 year old men, or talking snakes, or denials of Evolution, we find, by that reliable and honest and rational process that you so love to hate and libel, that nary a singleone of those illogical ideas will hold logical water. Ever. And so, of course, predictably, you hate them even more.
What about past predictions from your inerrant bible, whose times have come and gone without any occurrence? Why is everything always in the future? Even this prediction of 2069. YSM dutifully adds in, like a spaniel puppy at our feet, "some time after 2069". Why not just say "some time after today"? That would cover it all nicely, right? Of course any future prophecy will happen after right now. How intelligent of you folks!
And we have this in writing. And both Newton and I agree that the Jewish return to Israel and Jerusalem, is what the Bible prophecy foretold. Of course, Newton stated it would occur hundreds of years before it happened. I just acknowledged it's reality. What I find amazing, is how you guys can continue to ignore his written historical account, only because it confirms the Biblical prophecy. I would say your the one that has an agenda here, because you are ignoring Newton's own words. And now trying to blame me, for repeating them.
Actually, I never thought of such Newtonian prophecy stuff until you brought it up this morning. You call that denialism on my part? I'm not ignoring Newton's "prophecies" in any way. That wasn't his strong point, obviously!! Of course now that you've alerted me ,I will ignore them. Why waste time on nonsense after all. It means nothing to me.
Again, given the culture of the day, he may well have appeased the local religious authorities with some ambiguous gibberish, but so what? Answer me this Tom: SO WHAT?
Did Newton then go on to describe the end times in detail? He was a theoretical physicist, Tom, not a religious philosopher.
Again, for the really dumb here, "science" is not some big book of all knowledge, all future predictions, frozen in time and content. It's simply a toolset to try to get the best answer for the particular question an individual might have. now or in the future. In any topic area. Newton was not investigating the future. He was focused on investigating gravity and the inter-relationships between celestial and earth-bound bodies. Not future Godly events.
And so... exactly how does this uniquely qualify him to make valid pronouncements about future events? Was he involved in detailed investigations into predictions and prophesies? No, and why not? Because....
SUCH THINGS ARE BEYOND THE PURVIEW OF SCIENTIFIC INVESTIGATION BECAUSE THERE'S NO MEASURABLE, DOCUMENTABLE EVIDENCE AVAILABLE. IT'S THEREFORE NOT SCIENCE!
He was just a modest celebrity spouting off. It's be like Barbra Streisand talking about moon landing technology. So what?
Let's continue though,. This is fun, as usual, showing up lame-brained logic....
But first this valid comment from another logician...
Quote:
Originally Posted by sanspeur
What a steaming pool of hogwash.
Thank you!
Quote:
Originally Posted by MontanaGuy
Nea1 wrote:
I think it's important to consider the time in which important scientific figures lived in so that we can take into account their upbringing, general knowledge of the time, and the views that were widely held during their lives that would have influenced them. There's no question that Isaac Newton was one of the greatest thinkers in history and advanced human knowledge considerably in his lifetime but he also lived in an age in which there was no alternative to religious teachings and science had not yet discovered evolution, the age of the universe, and other important facts that are well known today. I don't find it surprising that he was a man of his times who held beliefs that were common in his lifetime as almost everyone does.
(KEY POINT...)
That's why I don't see his so called predictions as having any particular importance.
I agree with Nea1 and believe that if a man with the intellect of Newton had been fortunate enough to have been born in modern times and would have been influenced by the knowledge that others had contributed to mankind in previous centuries he would have built upon that knowledge instead of wasting his intelligence on the superstitions that were common when he actually lived his life.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MontanaGuy
People didn't have a clue how life began and I can understand why supernatural explanations were accepted and why someone like Newton might want to pursue such things as predicting the future. My main point is that I don't believe that a man born in modern times with such a great intellect would have any interest in such things.
Precisely.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Campbell34
Well you could be right, because often modern man looks on science as a replacement for religion.
Wrong. We've just questioned the irrational, and found it, predictably, lacking in terms of common sense. At the same time, we've found far more rational explanations that, over time, have shown themselves to be fact. Little by little, illogical piece by irrational fairy tale, the bible has been demolished, and there's no end in sight to that process. Well, except we've run out of stuff to debunk.
Yet Newtons predictions were based on the prophecies of the Bible.
Which other ones? you say "predictionS" Plural. Which other ones, Tom.
As usual, you build on one unsupportable fantasy and then claim a wide range of additional ideas, as though they were always there. Your typical "Science now agrees.... blah blah blah" when, in fact they never said, or even implied, such things. What a sad strategy.... But... we all see through it now.
And Newton was a Christian with an intellect.
Who ever said Christians weren't or aren't smart. They just deny and mis-understand the scientific process, calling it and it's users names, in order to deny whatever that system discovers, but only if those discoveries discredit Christianity.
So why would you find it strange that Newton would make a serious study of the prophecies of the Bible?
Did he now. Did he apply "science" to his "serious studies"? How, exactly? As regards future prophecies, the topic cannot be scientifically examined. That's only possible if they then occur precisely as scheduled, and then only statistically.
So then: Let's see that big list of (1) original specific prophecies, and (2) the dates of their occurrences.
Now maybe you believe that science and modern thought has replaced the supernatural.
You say "Now maybe you believe", as if we've been swept off our logical feet by your oh-so-convincing presentation here.
Nope; sorry. Nothing can replace the supernatural, Tom. It only exists in the minds of radical believers in the impossible, but when they are shown alternate factual evidence, they still won't/can't believe it. Who's irrational here? Who should change their beliefs?
Yet Newtons belief that the nation of Israel would exist in the 21st century, was both accurate and true. And why would you ignore that reality?
Which "reality"? That he believed it? So what? I believe the sun will explode one day ("after 2069"!!!) as well. And I'm a scientist. So now, do you believe everything I say as well? I even have a pretty high measured IQ. What's it to you? Who cares, really? What'll that buy me in your eyes?
If facts are important to you. Why would you ignore facts that support the supernatural?
Well.... I can come up with those all day long, Tom. As usual, now you're assuming Newton's read on this prophesy somehow makes it true, and yet we're not even there yet. Even YSM, your fellow inmate, has given us a different date. So how is this confirmation of anything?
In fact, your entire arguement is based on (WHY) would Newton do this? While ignoring the truth of what he stated.
Show me the link where he absolutely stated "such-and-such" would absolutely happen on "so-and-so" a date. Please.
(I'm pretty sure, you're making this up as you go, as usual. Building on a minor suggestion, assuming it's a fact, and then making huge, grandiose conclusions that are baseless. Which, BTW, leads us to yet another sad confirmation of how your mind works)
When the truth is before you, it appears you want to redirect your arguement on the WHY, rather than acknowledge the reality.
Again, you've determined what is The Truth, according to Newton. It hasn't even happened yet, Tom. He just suggested it might. So where's your proof again?
God, if this wasn't so obviously simple-minded, it'd be painful. But then again, I like to be amused by buffoonery, especially at the expense of the church and those who blindly follow it, and will, apparently, believe anything...
It should be obvious, that if Israel is to have a temple in 2060, they would have to of already existed as a nation as they do today. And clearly the Bible tells us that God allowed the Jews to return to Israel, so He can use them as bait. And no doubt, Newton understood this as well. God is setting a trap for the nations that are opposed to this Jewish State. Because God is getting ready to reveal to both the Jews, and to the people of this earth, who He is. The fact that you can ignore that Newton (KNEW) that in the 21st century Israel would exist, that they would be in control of Jerusalem, and it's citizens would be demanding to have their temple rebuilt. Well, thats just evidence to me, your in a state of denial. Also I might point out, all of these prophecies must occur before the generation that was born in the year 1948 passes away. So you don't have to worry about people making such predictions in the year 3060.
What is obvious to me is that you have no problem taking a prophecy and then twisting evidence to support it.It isn't at all clear that God allowed the jews to return to israel....the UN did.There were and have always been some jews living there too for that matter.Plenty of the jews who live there are more interested in being around other jews than they are about paying much attention to the 'jewish religion',its one of the more secular countries in the world.Plenty of israelies could care less about about any temple being rebuilt.Most,if not all of the generation born in 1948 will be dead long before 2060...didn't newton know this?Not many people make it to 112 years.I don't recall newton himself ever claiming to be a 'prophet'....He might find it amusing that you do.I could speculate about some future events too....if i'm right would that make me a prophet?People have used all kinds of signs,and prophecies to predict the 'end of the world' or the 'return of Jesus'...yet we are still here.Several 'bible code' enthusists thought it would be last september....whoops.The 2012 prophecy is nearly here.....ooh i'm scared.Generations of people have died of old age who were sure they would be 'called up into the clouds' within their lifetime.I expect you and I will have to wait until we die the conventional way to discover if anyones religious beliefs had any merit.
Yes, of course; the citizens of 200 - 300 years ago were, by their nature, engulfed in the mass hysterical beliefs of the day, so it's not uncommon for one of them to place an overlay of religious fervor on their pronouncements. Such as Darwin suffered under, to the extent of keeping his amazingly insightful and true thoughts quiet for some years before screwing up his courage enough to take on the stupid church. Glad he did though, but his reputation's been besmirched ever since by the idiot "thumper" crowd.
Anyone with a small brain could "predict" the Jewish migration. That is not an incontrovertible prophesy, a word you have yet to look up, Tom. Scientists also do not make predictions about events 400 years in the future, so Newton wasn't being true to his scientific principles in that regard, now was he?
He was simply trying to get along with the predominantly Christian culture of the day. To avoid being a social outcast. Just as Darwin did initially.
He loves to argue with this false logic. It falls into that "Everyone who ate carrots, ever, will die!" sort of silliness.
Actually, I never thought of such Newtonian prophecy stuff until you brought it up this morning. You call that denialism on my part? I'm not ignoring Newton's "prophecies" in any way. That wasn't his strong point, obviously!! Of course now that you've alerted me ,I will ignore them. Why waste time on nonsense after all. It means nothing to me.
Again, given the culture of the day, he may well have appeased the local religious authorities with some ambiguous gibberish, but so what? Answer me this Tom: SO WHAT?
Did Newton then go on to describe the end times in detail? He was a theoretical physicist, Tom, not a religious philosopher.
Again, for the really dumb here, "science" is not some big book of all knowledge, all future predictions, frozen in time and content. It's simply a toolset to try to get the best answer for the particular question an individual might have. now or in the future. In any topic area. Newton was not investigating the future. He was focused on investigating gravity and the inter-relationships between celestial and earth-bound bodies. Not future Godly events.
And so... exactly how does this uniquely qualify him to make valid pronouncements about future events? Was he involved in detailed investigations into predictions and prophesies? No, and why not? Because....
SUCH THINGS ARE BEYOND THE PURVIEW OF SCIENTIFIC INVESTIGATION BECAUSE THERE'S NO MEASURABLE, DOCUMENTABLE EVIDENCE AVAILABLE. IT'S THEREFORE NOT SCIENCE!
He was just a modest celebrity spouting off. It's be like Barbra Streisand talking about moon landing technology. So what?
Let's continue though,. This is fun, as usual, showing up lame-brained logic....
But first this valid comment from another logician...
Thank you!
Precisely.
Again, you've determined what is The Truth, according to Newton. It hasn't even happened yet, Tom. He just suggested it might. So where's your proof again?
God, if this wasn't so obviously simple-minded, it'd be painful. But then again, I like to be amused by buffoonery, especially at the expense of the church and those who blindly follow it, and will, apparently, believe anything...
Newton did not share his work with the religious establishment, so his study of the prophecies had nothing to do with him trying to get along with anyone. In fact, the experts believe his papers were never suppose to see the light of day. And Newtons work shows us, that he believed Israel would exist in the (21st centuary). So it was not just a wild guess of Jewish migration rifleman. He also stated, that they would be in control of Jerusalem, and these Jewish citizens would demand that their temple be rebuilt. He also stated that their return would lead to the Great Tribulation. Newton stated all of this about 300 years ago, and it was based on the Biblical prophecies. And Newton did not just suggest it would happen, he believed it would happen, because Newton believed the Bible. And to suggest it has not happened yet, is to ignore that Israel exist today, the Jews are in control of Jerusalem. And their is a movment that now exist that is demanding that the temple be rebuilt. And you are also ignoring that all of this is now happening in the 21st centuary, just as Newton predicted. And I do believe you will ignore his truthful prophecies rifleman. And I believe you will ignore them, because they are truthful.
Last edited by Campbell34; 01-10-2010 at 01:04 PM..
Quick Survey: Who is MORE Credible As A Scientist?
Which one of the following is more experienced in the Scientific Method, all of it's most recent logical & proven enhancements, and it's application under the glaring lights that modern communication and review can provide us?
(Note: all modern scientific publications are circulated by e-mail to the various boards of reviewers. In Newton's day, they were moved about as letters, by "goat-herder mail", where the goat probably inadvertently ate a lot of the correspondence!
Modern reviewer's qualifications are constantly under serious review, with new experts added yearly to such journals as "Nature", "Science", "Anthropology Today", The International Journal of Geophysics", etc. The qualifications of each and every reviewer is always completely open to those wishing to question or communicate.)
I wonder if that's the case for "The Creation Institute", the Catholic Church....
("Hello. I'm calling to talk to the Pope and ask him about his qualifications please. Would you put me through? Hello? Hello? Strange. The line seems to have gone dead!")
And of course, we KNOW what would happen if we called [Dr.*] Carl Baugh's office at The Creation Institute.... "Click".).
(* a self-granted doctoral degree...)
_______________________________________________
His experience in scientific investigation and peer-review by thousands of qualified participants? Pretty much "zippo".
(Ah yes; occult*studies. Good! A strong sign of an organized, logical mind... And I'm sure this had no influence on his thinking.... NOT)
2) Dr. Richard Dawkins ( March 26, 1941 - ) Dawkins is one of Britain's best-known academics. He is well-known as a presenter of the case for rationalism and scientific thinking. His later works continued to expand upon these ideas and their implications.
Experience in modern, high-intensity peer-review? Too numerous to list here.
(There's lots of additional information available on line on both of these men; Try Wikipedia if you are interested)
________________________________________
So there you have it. Cast your votes:
√ Which one is more logically based, with a stronger understanding of factual, theoretical scientific investigation, logical thought and rational conclusions?
√ Whose scientific opinions would be more valid and more based in reality?
√ If his decisions were to directly affect your own personal survival for instance, which one would you trust to be more rationally based and accurate in their assessment?
√ Alternately, which one would be more likely to add in some unprovable, mystical ("occult") component to their thinking?
--------------------------------------------------------
*FYI: "OCCULT" = The term occult is used as a label given to a number of magical organizations or orders, the teachings and practices taught by them, and to a large body of current and historical literature and spiritual philosophy related to this subject . Usually defined as the opposite of rational scientific thought.
[Best answer gets a prize!]
Last edited by rifleman; 01-10-2010 at 12:55 PM..
Reason: typoz, clarifications
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The Sermon of Logical Truth for today...
Quick Survey: Who is MORE Credible As A Scientist?
