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Old 10-15-2011, 01:29 PM
 
Location: Near a river
16,042 posts, read 18,985,208 times
Reputation: 15649

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Quote:
Originally Posted by markg91359 View Post
However, as you drive down the tax-payer funded road to your FDIC insured bank to deposit your Social Security check and than stop off at the doctor's office for your appointment that will be paid for by Medicare give some credit where it is due. People who believe government has no important role to play in our society don't know what they are talking about.
Well there's only so much cash in the till, for homeowners and governments alike. For homeowners to foot the bill is plain unsustainable over any length of time (what will your property tax be 10 years from now? what will it be then for the people less well-off than you?)

Sure, renters "pay through their rents," but when the jobs situation gets to the point of seriously affecting market value of rentals and occupancies, there will be a big problem. And displaced renters (i.e., the evicted) will be forced to turn to government agencies ironically costing the gov't a huge bundle in another way.

Further in this line of reasoning, if the agency help is not there for the displaced/homeless/unemployed, then we have an unprecedented social and economic crisis in America. Someone ultimately pays for everything.

If the rich want to maintain the status quo with social and economic stability, they'd better ante up and pay more taxes in correlation to their incomes and assets.

* * *

In keeping with the topic of this thread, there are many, many retirees who could be among the displaced/homeless, and who could turn to draining the resources of any federal or state help agencies. It could, if you imagine for a moment, be a real mess.
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Old 10-15-2011, 03:15 PM
 
Location: Ponte Vedra Beach FL
14,628 posts, read 17,938,980 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by old_cold View Post
Regardless that I hope he won't get the nomination and/or wouldn't get elecetd if he does aqnd don't believe he could get this implimented if all of that comes to be, there is always a chance.
Many retired persons of moderate and lower incomes would end up getting hurt with this plan.
No income....so won't save on a lower tax rate.
Few capital gains to speak of, if any...so won't save there.
But will end up paying 9% more for everything we spend.
Ouch.
Does this apply to you/the retired people you know?
Perhaps you didn't express yourself clearly - but if you don't have any income - why would you pay any income tax under any income tax plan? And if you don't have any income - where are you getting the money to buy stuff with - by selling assets? Gifts from family? I pretty much don't understand your basic financial structure.

As for the original question you asked. In general - seniors have more "stuff" than juniors - especially juniors who are in their household formation years. So this would be a tax that would tend to affect juniors more adversely than seniors. Note that best I can tell under the Cain plan - there has been no determination whether or not some of the things that are commonly exempt from state sales taxes - like food - and many services (including medical services) - would be subject to the 9% sales tax. FWIW - I think we will wind up with a national VAT sooner or later unless we want to drown in debt - whether or not Cain is nominated or elected. Robyn
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Old 10-15-2011, 03:37 PM
 
Location: Near a river
16,042 posts, read 18,985,208 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robyn55 View Post
Note that best I can tell under the Cain plan - there has been no determination whether or not some of the things that are commonly exempt from state sales taxes - like food - and many services (including medical services) - would be subject to the 9% sales tax. Robyn
One of the few things that makes my state affordable is that there is no sales tax on food or clothing. None. This helps balance the high property tax and high rents here. I cannot imagine paying $109 on a $100 worth of groceries. Highway robbery say the salty NewEnglanders!

Now if they want to add more tax to alcohol and cigs and the like, and maybe legalize pot for state cash income instead of those casinos all over the place, that's another story worth talking about. On second thought, OK to the casinos. Just don't tax my weekly food and winter coat.
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Old 10-15-2011, 04:27 PM
 
Location: Ponte Vedra Beach FL
14,628 posts, read 17,938,980 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markg91359 View Post
So than if government has no money and we pay no taxes things will be their very best right? We should just scrap the whole thing.

Here are just a handful of things you "inefficient government" is doing for you:

1. Building roads and highways
2. Policing your streets and cities.
3. Providing garbage pickup, water purification, and sewage disposal systems.
4. Adjudicating the guilt or innocence of those accused of crimes and incarcerating the worst offenders.
5. Protecting you from Al Quaeda and foreign powers who have no love for this country.
6. Taking care of the veterans who served our country faithfully through pensions and a healthcare system.
7. Setting air and water quality standards that allow you to breath the air and drink the water with some faith that you won't be poisoned doing so.
8. Delivering your mail.
9. Setting standards and enforcing those standards to insure our food isn't contaminated with bacteria when we eat it.
10. Providing pensions and healthcare for the elderly in our society.
11. Educating your children.
12. Providing student loans for higher education.
13. Running public universities in all the states I'm aware of.
14. Preventing job and educational discrimination against Americans simply because their skin is darker, they are from a minority religion, and they are of a different sex.
15. Setting safety standards and enforcing them in the workplace.

I, too, wish my taxes were lower. I promise you that you have no idea just how high they are. I'm all open for cheaper ways to run government. We can probably trim some fat from every agency.

However, as you drive down the tax-payer funded road to your FDIC insured bank to deposit your Social Security check and than stop off at the doctor's office for your appointment that will be paid for by Medicare give some credit where it is due. People who believe government has no important role to play in our society don't know what they are talking about.
I look at the world with totally different eyes. Governments don't do things for us. They take our money - and then try to reach some kind of consensus on how we would like it to be spent. Governments have our broad support for some spending - very little support for other spending. But - in general - our politicians put into place programs that we support.

Unfortunately - we are borrowing 40 cents for every dollar of spending at the federal level - and - for many of us in many places - borrowing more at the state and local levels for state and local spending that may not be sustainable in the future (think government employee pensions and health benefits). This has to end - and we need politicians who will give us plain talk about dollars and cents instead of trying to demonize the few people in this country who obviously aren't middle class (just about everyone in this country thinks they're "middle class") - and trying to pretend that some kind of financial hocus pocus involving millionaires and billionaires (why anyone would lump them together is beyond me - since many people in areas with high real estate values and paid off mortgages are millionaires) will make a dent in the debt problem. Even in the short run - you can't balance a triangle on its apex.

FWIW - I'm sure there are quite a few people who oppose certain aspects of certain things on your list or find them irrelevant. For example - new urbanists don't like a lot of #1 (it promotes suburban and ex-urban sprawl). And the EPA (#7) has been so far over the left field fence recently that even the administration has backed off from some of what it was planning to do.

And then there are things that (some) governments don't do - or that they do very badly. Up until recently - I got all of #3 from private providers. My garbage pickup is still private. Twice a week garbage - once a week recycling - once a week yard trash - $70/year. Since our local government utility took over our private water and sewer 3 years ago - our prices have more than doubled (with no improvements to service - we can't even pay our water bills on line). I was watching a utility crew in another county working today while I was sitting in a restaurant. For more than an hour. Seven - count 'em - 7 guys - doing a concrete patch about 10x4 feet. Three guys with little trowels - and 4 guys watching them. Only in the public sector <shaking head> Have you read the recent stories about the way these things work in Chicago (I had never heard of gerrymandered garbage routes before)?

Another example of government doing something badly is education. Perhaps not in a lily-white state like Utah (where you live). But in all states where there are substantial low-income black populations. And - since educational outcomes tend to correlate most closely with race and ethnicity - and not amounts spent per pupil - I don't believe that simply throwing more money at the problem will help anything.

Then there are things that some people think government shouldn't be doing at all. I don't know why the government should be in the business of student loans. Taxpayers in Florida already support an extensive network of state schools (from community colleges to major universities) that are very cheap. Schools where it is possible to work part-time during the school year and full-time in the summer and pay for your education. If Harvard wants a student who can't pay for Harvard - let Harvard give the kid a scholarship (it only has enough money in its endowment to last for the next 600 years). And why should taxpayers pay for loans to students at the Tulsa Welding School?

Anyway - I have paid a ton in taxes since I became an adult (in the beginning years - the top federal income tax rate was 50% on "earned" income - 70% on "unearned" income). I like to say "I gave at the office". Now that I am retired and have no earned income - I can arrange my financial affairs to minimize my tax load in some areas (can't do it in others - like property taxes - except to the extent that I own a less expensive house than I can afford). Also - my husband and I are careful when it comes to financial things. Both in terms of earning and spending. We don't pi** money away. I think there are a fair number of seniors like us - who - regardless of income - are offended by politicians who are feckless when it comes to spending - and people in this country who are over the top when it comes to their overblown sense of entitlement (and these people are in all income groups IMO).

Finally - I think the worst offense perpetrated against seniors in the last X years or so is what the fed has done. Depriving people who worked hard to save some money for their senior years from getting any return on a conservative investment of those savings. To try to save everyone from Goldman Sachs to the penny-ante real estate speculator from going under. Note that I am not seriously affected by this for a variety of reasons. But - for the people who saved some - and looked forward to making 4-5% on a low-risk CD - well they're hurting. And I am PO'd at what they have to go through today while our government is trying to bail out a bunch of financial idiots. Off soap box. Robyn
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Old 10-15-2011, 04:42 PM
 
Location: The Land of Reason
13,300 posts, read 10,500,602 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by newenglandgirl View Post
Nine percent of $millions is a drop in the bucket.

Nine percent of a $1400 SS check, minimum wage check, or earnings of 2.5% on a CD is not.



Once again it's the elite coming up with a proposed solution that only the elite could bear.

It never amazes me that the american people have been beat up by the rich and powerful we have even started defending some of their uneven tax laws. Just think the very same people that are defending tax breaks for the rich are the very same ones that make the rules of the tax game
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Old 10-15-2011, 04:52 PM
 
9,204 posts, read 9,280,929 times
Reputation: 28843
Quote:
Unfortunately - we are borrowing 40 cents for every dollar of spending at the federal level - and - for many of us in many places - borrowing more at the state and local levels for state and local spending that may not be sustainable in the future
I don't disagree that we can't keep borrowing the way that we do. I don't have a "chicken little" attitude about it though. If the economy goes further downhill because of reduced demand, resulting from lower government spending not only will unemployment rise, but there will be even less tax revenue to repay our debts. I don't see any financial panic occurring in the next couple of years because of the debt load. However, long term we must come to grips with it. I'm all for reductions in government spending. My favorite target would be TSA and Homeland Security. I think 90% of what they do is accomplishing nothing.


Quote:
FWIW - I'm sure there are quite a few people who oppose certain aspects of certain things on your list or find them irrelevant. For example - new urbanists don't like a lot of #1 (it promotes suburban and ex-urban sprawl). And the EPA (#7) has been so far over the left field fence recently that even the administration has backed off from some of what it was planning to do.
Some people don't believe global warming is a real phenomenon. I suppose even though it is real, in the present state the economy is in that its unrealistic to talk about regulating green house gases. Of course, some people oppose some government functions. It may well be time to consider eliminating the post office. I think you can make a good argument that its outlived its usefulness. Between email and companies like UPS, I'm not sure what function USPS serves anymore.


Quote:
Another example of government doing something badly is education. Perhaps not in a lily-white state like Utah (where you live). But in all states where there are substantial low-income black populations. And - since educational outcomes tend to correlate most closely with race and ethnicity - and not amounts spent per pupil - I don't believe that simply throwing more money at the problem will help anything.
There's massive support for public schools here. The legislature enacted a voucher law. It got put on the ballot as a referendum and it was overwhelmingly repealed.

Quote:
Anyway - I have paid a ton in taxes since I became an adult (in the beginning years - the top federal income tax rate was 50% on "earned" income - 70% on "unearned" income).
You wouldn't. However, if most people here knew what my income tax was they'd be pretty shocked. From a young age, though, I've always believed in responsibility. No one has to plead with me to take care of my children, go to work in the morning, or pay my taxes. I take the deductions the law allows me and even after that, its pretty frightening. I don't like it. Its just the way it is though.


Quote:
Finally - I think the worst offense perpetrated against seniors in the last X years or so is what the fed has done. Depriving people who worked hard to save some money for their senior years from getting any return on a conservative investment of those savings. To try to save everyone from Goldman Sachs to the penny-ante real estate speculator from going under. Note that I am not seriously affected by this for a variety of reasons. But - for the people who saved some - and looked forward to making 4-5% on a low-risk CD - well they're hurting. And I am PO'd at what they have to go through today while our government is trying to bail out a bunch of financial idiots. Off soap box.
Heard this argument before. However, those policies are great if you are taking out another mortgage like I am right now. (3.6%--15 years)
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Old 10-15-2011, 04:57 PM
 
Location: Near a river
16,042 posts, read 18,985,208 times
Reputation: 15649
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robyn55 View Post
Finally - I think the worst offense perpetrated against seniors in the last X years or so is what the fed has done. Depriving people who worked hard to save some money for their senior years from getting any return on a conservative investment of those savings. To try to save everyone from Goldman Sachs to the penny-ante real estate speculator from going under. Note that I am not seriously affected by this for a variety of reasons. But - for the people who saved some - and looked forward to making 4-5% on a low-risk CD - well they're hurting. And I am PO'd at what they have to go through today while our government is trying to bail out a bunch of financial idiots. Off soap box. Robyn
Well you are one of the few well-off who have a conscience. Your soap box is a good one.

FWIW, I guess if we didn't have government providing all that stuff we'd return to the Wild West with everyone carrying guns and shooting it out in the streets...and justice being an eye for an eye...We may well return to that.
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Old 10-15-2011, 07:26 PM
 
Location: Mtns of Waynesville,NC & Nokomis, FL
4,241 posts, read 8,089,320 times
Reputation: 5299
Good Reading Thread, and some of the posts are very well done...
as to the orig '9-9-9', it will never come to be, imo. Anyone running for office can hang a hat on some promised hook/jive.
Congress will never fashion a typical 2,000 page bill that sets 9-9-9 in motion.

It is media/candidate jive and bs, imo.
Back to reading here.
GL, mD
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Old 10-15-2011, 09:22 PM
 
29,782 posts, read 34,880,403 times
Reputation: 11705
Quote:
Originally Posted by newenglandgirl View Post
Well there's only so much cash in the till, for homeowners and governments alike. For homeowners to foot the bill is plain unsustainable over any length of time (what will your property tax be 10 years from now? what will it be then for the people less well-off than you?)

Sure, renters "pay through their rents," but when the jobs situation gets to the point of seriously affecting market value of rentals and occupancies, there will be a big problem. And displaced renters (i.e., the evicted) will be forced to turn to government agencies ironically costing the gov't a huge bundle in another way.

Further in this line of reasoning, if the agency help is not there for the displaced/homeless/unemployed, then we have an unprecedented social and economic crisis in America. Someone ultimately pays for everything.

If the rich want to maintain the status quo with social and economic stability, they'd better ante up and pay more taxes in correlation to their incomes and assets.

* * *

In keeping with the topic of this thread, there are many, many retirees who could be among the displaced/homeless, and who could turn to draining the resources of any federal or state help agencies. It could, if you imagine for a moment, be a real mess.
Everyone might want to try this calculator and see what percentage of the wealth and taxes paid their income group contributes.

How Your Income Stacks Up

Quote:
Your $200,000 adjusted gross income (AGI) puts you in the top 5% of earners.
The top-earning 5% of taxpayers reported 31.72% of all AGI and paid 58.66% of total income taxes.
Together, you and the other 6.9 million taxpayers with incomes of $154,643 or more paid a total of $507.9 billion in federal income taxes.


and another

Your $500,000 adjusted gross income (AGI) puts you in the top 1% of earners.
The top-earning 1% of taxpayers reported 16.93% of all AGI and paid 36.73% of total income taxes.
Together, you and the other 1.4 million taxpayers with incomes of $343,927 or more paid a total of $318.1 billion in federal income taxes.


more

Your $50,000 adjusted gross income (AGI) puts you in the top 50% of earners.
The top-earning 50% of taxpayers reported 86.52% of all AGI and paid 97.75% of total income taxes.
Together, you and the other 68.9 million taxpayers with incomes of $32,396 or more paid a total of $846.4 trillion in federal income taxes.


Finally

Your $32,000 adjusted gross income (AGI) puts you in the lowest 50% of earners.
The lowest-earning 50% of taxpayers reported 13.48% of all AGI and paid 2.25% of total income taxes.
Together, you and the other 68.9 million taxpayers with incomes of $32,396 or less paid a total of $32.4 billion in federal income taxes. This includes millions of low-income workers who actually paid negative income taxes because their Earned Income Tax Credits wiped out their income-tax liability and refunded to them part of the Social Security taxes they paid.


So folks who really pays their fair share and who really has skin in the game or as some might say are the ones filling the gas tank up so the engine can run.
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Old 10-15-2011, 09:24 PM
 
29,782 posts, read 34,880,403 times
Reputation: 11705
I wonder if it is fair to say that one group of Americans put the gas in the tank and drive the car and another group are hitch hikers getting a free ride? So will the 9-9-9 plan require everyone to help gas up, drive or navigate? Perhaps I have it wrong. Doesn't our current system allow people to neither put gas in the tank or drive but still allow them to navigate?

Last edited by TuborgP; 10-15-2011 at 09:42 PM..
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