Is Tampa Bay big enough to support rail lines? (Brandon: subdivision, taxis)

[Not_liking_FL]

Originally Posted by algia

Let me explain something about public transit:

IF it doesn't go where people live, it is ALL for nothing/nada/zilch!

IF you put it downtown again....with no connection to where people live in the suburbs...it is ALL for nothing. AND By people, I mean those who work 9 to 5 real jobs, not homeless looking for shelter...how will the homeless be kept out of it?

IF you make people drive to take the rail () it will not work, and it will be inconvenient..if I am in the car already, what is the point in parking my car elsewhere (instead of having it nicely tucked in the garage), so I can trek with PT!??? what is the sense in doing that?

Usually, PT comes first before a city expands to where PT will no longer make any sense! If it takes me 30 minutes by car, and 170 minutes by PT which do you think I'll pick? (hint=my car)

With something like the map Gonzo posted and BRT lines in between I think it would be very easy to get around with no car. Park and ride would be nice for the outer suburbs.

[TXRyan23]

Originally Posted by tampagator89

The "reasonable walk" thing is more concerning and that is the main problem here. The density of this area is ridiculously low. I think park-n-ride options at USF and New Tampa might work. As for simple stations, one at Busch Gardens and another maybe at Seminole Heights. It's tough to say.

As for the west line, simple stations at TIA, Westshore Plaza, and perhaps Soho entertainment region (if possible) would work. This is about the maximum we can realistically expect to work to start out with.

Right, it just seems to me that it wouldn't be that convenient for a large majority of the area population, meaning they wouldn't ride it, and it would cost more to operate than they make. Just my $0.02.

Would the City/County/State see it as a social necessity like a library or museum? or would they see it as a business, to make money? If they're looking to add it for the ease and use of the citizens, then yeah, it'll work. I'm not sure that they're willing to put it into place if it means losses in revenues.

Didn't they have something similar in Tampa awhile back? Downtown to Davis Island? I'm not sure if I'm remembering correctly, but I believe it failed pretty hard.

[algia]

Actually light rail can go up Dale Mabry from Kennedy blvd all the way to Connerton in Land O Lakes!
It could also run down Hillsborough Avenue...and all other major hwy's, like SR-54, US-19 etc. ALL the streets meeting up to these larger arteries would have buses, electric buses that is to keep pollution down, bringing people from the subdivision entrances to the rail station! BELIEVE ME...It is very doable...what is not that doable is finding people to implement it, and keep it clear from homeless and robbers. If they come timed every 10 minutes, they would be very successful. If they made stops by all shopping plaza's and have over pass connections over these shopping plaza it would work extremely well.

But again, people get stuck on "taxes" etc...and it will never get done.

[tampagator89]

Originally Posted by algia

Let me explain something about public transit:

IF it doesn't go where people live, it is ALL for nothing/nada/zilch!

IF you put it downtown again....with no connection to where people live in the suburbs...it is ALL for nothing. AND By people, I mean those who work 9 to 5 real jobs, not homeless looking for shelter...how will the homeless be kept out of it?

IF you make people drive to take the rail () it will not work, and it will be inconvenient..if I am in the car already, what is the point in parking my car elsewhere (instead of having it nicely tucked in the garage), so I can trek with PT!??? what is the sense in doing that?

Usually, PT comes first before a city expands to where PT will no longer make any sense! If it takes me 30 minutes by car, and 170 minutes by PT which do you think I'll pick? (hint=my car)

Umm...it took me 1 hour to get from TT to Westshore the other day, and that was reverse commuting and at 3pm! LOL

Also, 170 minutes for a train to go 20 miles? Took me an hour to go 26 miles from downtown Philly to Malvern, and that was with about 20 different stops in between (rather than the likely 5 or 6 between NT and downtown). Would take even less than that to go from Westchase to downtown.

The time differences would be a wash (or better with train), the cost would be a wash as I described earlier, so why not drive 5 mins, park, and use the train? Maybe take a nap on the way. Unless you don't mind driving in stop-and-go traffic for 1 hour plus all the way down the interstate...maybe from Westchase to Westshore or NT to USF would not be worth it, but for a lot of people who have to travel a long way I bet they would utilize park-n-ride.

[gonzoUSF]

This is in reference to Algia (I'm to lazy to go back and quote it)

What you said basically summarizes how many across the Bay area feel about rail. Way too many are car dependent and would rather drive their cars and continue to contribute to the traffic issue rather than go through the small inconvenience of driving to a park n ride and taking the train and that's a whole different issue.

That being said, you bring up a valid point, particularly with mass transit connections. This is something High Speed Rail would have had a problem with. People could have gotten from point A-B (Downtown Tampa-Downtown Orlando), but for many those are not their destinations, many would have had to either walk, take a cab or do the park n ride thing. This situation would be a problem for light rail in Tampa, we need good end point circulators to make future mass transit efficient. For example, USF has a great existing circulator in the Bull Runner, so any light rail stations at USF, connections to surrounding areas would be quite simple. If Downtown Tampa ever completes the street car loop we would have great mass transit connections their along with Marion Transit Center. Westshore is currently working on a circulator there as well. Now to mention BRT (North/South and future BRT East/West)

Once something like that is in place, the excuse of having to drive to take LRT is out the window. And this is something that needs to happen for LRT and commuter rail to be successful in the Bay area.

[thethinktank]

Originally Posted by algia

Let me explain something about public transit:

City Data's favorite reactionary. This should be thrilling.

Originally Posted by algia

IF it doesn't go where people live, it is ALL for nothing/nada/zilch!

Fortunately, that isn't the case here. Or pretty much any other city aside from Detroit and it's People Mover. All of the proposed rail maps are designed to connect Tampa's population centers with its business centers, schools and airport.

Originally Posted by algia

IF you put it downtown again....with no connection to where people live in the suburbs...it is ALL for nothing. AND By people, I mean those who work 9 to 5 real jobs, not homeless looking for shelter...how will the homeless be kept out of it?

I assume you live in the suburbs. The initial system isn't designed to serve you, and with good reason. Like I mentioned above, the goal is to connect Tampa's population centers (Tampa, not Brandon, not Wesley Chapel, not Land-o-Lakes, TAMPA) with its airport, business centers downtown and in Westshore, and USF to the north. In the future, the idea is to connect it with some suburbs with additional lines. If you live in Chicago, for example, you can't ride the CTA trains to Schaumburg. You ride them within Chicago. There is a different service to bring suburban commuters to the city, one that largely connects with the CTA in different locations. It's a common developmental scheme-- build a fundamental network and then develop lines that connect it to a wider area of coverage.

Originally Posted by algia

IF you make people drive to take the rail () it will not work, and it will be inconvenient..if I am in the car already, what is the point in parking my car elsewhere (instead of having it nicely tucked in the garage), so I can trek with PT!??? what is the sense in doing that?

Park-and-ride services are not uncommon in larger metro areas. They're not uncommon because they work. I don't know if they make sense for Tampa yet, but fortunately that isn't a question we have to answer yet. The suburbs shouldn't be a priority yet.

Reverse engineer this, Algia. If you want a station in a sprawling suburb, you can't be close to everyone. So if the station is three miles away from you, are you going to walk every day twice a day to use it? Hence park-and-ride, it allows you to put six miles on your car and ride the rest of the way to and from work, likely paying less in gas/depreciation than you would if you drove while arriving on a similar schedule.

[TXRyan23]

Originally Posted by thethinktank

Park-and-ride services are not uncommon in larger metro areas. They're not uncommon because they work. I don't know if they make sense for Tampa yet, but fortunately that isn't a question we have to answer yet. The suburbs shouldn't be a priority yet.

The City of Tampa has a population of 346,000.
Hillsborough County has a population of 1.3 million.

How can the suburbs NOT be a priority?

That pretty much makes the point against a commuter train in Tampa. There won't be enough interest in it because the population will be too far away from it.

[gonzoUSF]

For those that like visuals I threw this map together real quick: Tampa Mass Transit - Google Maps

Note line A and B will be the first LRT built. Also note the USF circulator, now imagine a completed TECO streetcar in downtown and Westshore's circulator.

[thethinktank]

Originally Posted by TXRyan23

The City of Tampa has a population of 346,000.
Hillsborough County has a population of 1.3 million.

How can the suburbs NOT be a priority?

Density, TXRyan23.

Please note my points about the progressive design of rail transit. You start with the city population centers, points of business and travel, then you build out as needed. That's what nearly every city with an active transit base has done. They didn't serve the entire community to start, but they built toward a wider goal.

The proposed rail maps target the areas with the greatest density to start, then extend outward to serve additional areas.

Originally Posted by TXRyan23

That pretty much makes the point against a commuter train in Tampa. There won't be enough interest in it because the population will be too far away from it.

This isn't intended to be a suburb commuter train. It's a city transit system for local commuters. Using the Chicago example again, they have two active systems-- the CTA which services the city and the Metra rail which services suburban commuters.

[Not_liking_FL]

Originally Posted by gonzoUSF

For those that like visuals I threw this map together real quick: Tampa Mass Transit - Google Maps

Note line A and B will be the first LRT built. Also note the USF circulator, now imagine a completed TECO streetcar in downtown and Westshore's circulator.

Do you know if there is a plan to connect Tampa to St. Pete/Pinellas by LRT? If so, do you have a map?