Is Tampa Bay big enough to support rail lines? (Orlando: buying, bankrupt)

[things and stuff]

Park n ride was pretty common when I was in the San Francisco Bay Area. A lot of people used them.

[algia]

Originally Posted by things and stuff

Park n ride was pretty common when I was in the San Francisco Bay Area. A lot of people used them.

There is a sign on I-4 as you come back from Orlando that reads "Park N Ride"...here:
HART - Hillsborough Area Regional Transit - Tampa, Florida. Tampa Area Park and Ride

[thethinktank]

Ignoring everything else, I'll just skip to the content:

Originally Posted by algia

Park and ride is another side effect of poor planning.

Europe is well known for PT, and nowhere will you ever find a park and ride, because it makes no sense.

This comparison doesn't work-- the cities of Europe developed on a completely different scale than the cities in the US, with the exception of New York, Boston and a few others. Europe's cities are thousands of years old. Their urban road systems largely pre-date the automobile, and so do many of their rail systems. London's tube first opened in 1863, decades before automobiles were introduced into the traffic pool.

Europe's cities largely grew around rail lines. In the US, the automobile was a driving force for suburban sprawl. As a result of the residential sprawl, extra-urban rail transit requires park-and-ride to sustain itself. It's not a side effect of poor planning, it's a result of an auto-centric path of urban development. That's what's so different about cities in the US vs. cities in Europe-- especially a young city like Tampa whose development mostly came after the advent of the automobile.

[vaughanwilliams]

Originally Posted by TXRyan23

Light Rail Isn't the Track to the Future | Cato Institute

Cato Institute - SourceWatch

Not a great source-Cato is funded in part by the oil and gas corporations.

Anyway, as much as I'd like to see rail in the Bay area, I'm not holding my breath. It would take a diametrical shift of the political intestinal fortitude and some actual forward thinking.

[chi_tino]

I love how the pro-rail types love to compare Tampa to Chicago, New York and San Franscisco to hype their arguments.

Chicago/New York/SF daily parking rates in business centers: $25 to 50/day

Tampa/St Pete daily parking rates in business centers: Free to $10/day

There is a solid financial reason for the time and inconvenience of taking public transit to downtown in these large cities. In Tampa Bay, the financial benefits are actually negative - there's a cost to taking public transit. People making $25-100 an hour aren't going to waste 1-2 hours of their time to save five or ten dollars per day in parking/gas.

Those who ignore these types of calculations must be profoundly poor or have really low-end jobs -- people with real careers in downtown centers value their time at more than a few dollars an hour.

[gonzoUSF]

Originally Posted by algia

No, I explained why its not working. Don't think if it was "all figured out" we would have had it by now? how old is the one in Miami? don't you think Tampa was around when they built that one?

No, I am not...I explained what needs to happen to make it work. You obviously want to have it centralized in one area again, that is usually empty after 5pm, and so far has a minimum of residents who will benefit from having it.

Your answers attack me directly, rather than provide an actual solution. I drive fork kids and work every single day...everywhere in Hillsborough, and Pinellas...and throughout Florida as a whole so for me it won't work because I have equipment in my car that cannot be hand carried...so I am summed to use a car.....BUT....if for example there was Light Rail on Dale Mabry and I had to go to Target for a couple of things...I would have no qualms about using it. Or go to the gym every morning.

Gonzo...You believe what you want...I drive Dale Mabry daily...and I can tell you that if it had rail, the rail would be full every day. There could be shuttles on:
Lutz Lake Fern
Van Dyke
Northdale Blvd
Ehrlich Rd/Bearss Ave
Gunn Hwy
Linebaugh
Waters Ave
Then have a nod at Hillsborough ave
Boy Scout Blvd
...bringing ppl to meet with the rail...that way those who live or work there would have Connections! When you built such system you have to connect it to the rest of the city, otherwise its pointless if it goes where nothing else goes.

Please stay on TOPIC. We are discussing how, or where to install it to make it work for everyone who will find use in using it. I am sorry you can't stay on topic and resort to personal attacks when you have nothing else to comment on. I lived in Florida 12 years now, and I know how awful PT is here in Tampa, in Orlando and in Fort Lauderdale.

Park and ride is another side effect of poor planning.

Europe is well known for PT, and nowhere will you ever find a park and ride, because it makes no sense.

I don't even know where to begin with this, I have no idea if you are quoting me or multiple people including thinktank.

Several points:
--Downtown Tampa will be the future rail hub and mass transit hub for the region, not just because it is downtown, but because it is the most centralized area in the Tampa Bay region. To say downtown is dead after 5 has nothing to do with rail. One downtown isn't dead after 5 anymore simple go drive around from 6-8/9 and you will see quite a bit of activity. Downtown also has multiple venues and possible future venues that LRT benefits from. Not to mention the future economic development that comes with rail, we want that future development to be in downtown rather than more sprawl.

-- You don't build light rail or any rail system so people can go to Target or any similar stores, that is not the purpose of rail, that is why Dale Mabry would fail for rail and that is why we have bus systems. Rail is meant for transit to and from large employment centers and large residential centers and venues/airports. Westshore, Downtown, Carrillon, TPA, USF are all of those, you also need a walkable environment. For the most part those that I previously listed are walkable. Now the suburbs that you listed, one density is fairly low in all of those, two they are not walkable and three everything is spread out. Hence why you see zero plans at least in the short term for rail to suburbs like those.

Again, I will reiterate. We will never see rail on Dale Mabry with the exception for a leg to RJS/HCC. You can drive up and down Dale Mabry all you want, it is simply not going to happen.

*edit* And you got to stop comparing Europe to Tampa or Europe to America. They are not even remotely comparable and by doing so proves nothing.

[CountryFisher]

Tampa needs more highways, especially east to west ones, not public transit especially since not many people would use it.

Hillsborough Avenue should be turned into an interstate highway and connect to I-4.
Tampa also needs a beltway from US 19 in Pinellas county, circling around Pasco (along SR 54) and central eastern Hillsborough (along Paul Bauchman highway going in between Plant City and Lakeland) then connecting to the Sunshine Skyway bridge exit.
There also needs to be a bigger highway from downtown Tampa going to the Apollo Beach and Gibsonton area.
The Veterans Expressway extension to Dale Mabry should be extended to reach I-275, unfortunately this can't happen since the Baptist church would go right in its path.

[thethinktank]

Originally Posted by chi_tino

In Tampa Bay, the financial benefits are actually negative - there's a cost to taking public transit. People making $25-100 an hour aren't going to waste 1-2 hours of their time to save five or ten dollars per day in parking/gas.

This is a straw man, chi_tino. If someone is spending $5-$10/day on gas, they're driving 40-80 miles to and from their office every day. Those people aren't targeted by the proposed rail project.

Originally Posted by chi_tino

Chicago/New York/SF daily parking rates in business centers: $25 to 50/day

Tampa/St Pete daily parking rates in business centers: Free to $10/day

I believe you're the first to introduce the cost of parking to this discussion. All the more reason for someone within the proposed rail map to opt for rail at all, regardless of how the local parking prices compare to other cities.

Originally Posted by chi_tino

I love how the pro-rail types love to compare Tampa to Chicago, New York and San Franscisco to hype their arguments.

Specific examples of this generalization, please.

[TXRyan23]

Originally Posted by vaughanwilliams

Cato Institute - SourceWatch

Not a great source-Cato is funded in part by the oil and gas corporations.

Anyway, as much as I'd like to see rail in the Bay area, I'm not holding my breath. It would take a diametrical shift of the political intestinal fortitude and some actual forward thinking.

There are many stories online about the financial mess that rail, be it light or high speed, truly are..

The Bullet Train to Bankruptcy - Lou Dolinar - National Review Online

Should the Public Pay for Unprofitable Transit Routes? - Commute - The Atlantic Cities

(OPINION) Light Rail 'Nothing Short of a Money Pit' - Hopkins, MN Patch

Light Rail: Boon or Boondoggle?

I just wonder how politicians are going to go to tax payers and ask them to foot the bill for something that likely 80% of them won't use and which the city/county/state will actually lose money on?

Then again, they did it for Raymond James Stadiums and it passed, so you never truly know, do you?

[TXRyan23]

Originally Posted by CountryFisher

Tampa needs more highways, especially east to west ones, not public transit especially since not many people would use it.

Hillsborough Avenue should be turned into an interstate highway and connect to I-4.
Tampa also needs a beltway from US 19 in Pinellas county, circling around Pasco (along SR 54) and central eastern Hillsborough (going in between Plant City and Lakeland) then connecting to the Sunshine Skyway bridge exit.
There also needs to be a bigger highway from downtown Tampa going to the Apollo Beach and Gibsonton area.
The Veterans Expressway extension to Dale Mabry should be extended to reach I-275.

I agree 100% with the Tampa Bay area needing a beltway, they could even put toll booths on it, but they need to get it built!