Is Tampa Bay big enough to support rail lines? (Brandon: income, maintenance)

[tampagator89]

Originally Posted by gonzoUSF

For those that like visuals I threw this map together real quick: Tampa Mass Transit - Google Maps

Note line A and B will be the first LRT built. Also note the USF circulator, now imagine a completed TECO streetcar in downtown and Westshore's circulator.

Great map! After you did this I even put together one myself for fun. Lol.

[tampagator89]

For those interested, Miami got their light rail in the mid-80's when they were about as big as Tampa is now. The ridership struggled, but nevertheless the construction sparked development close to stations and around downtown, and ridership has since been increased with a new line serving the airport.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metrorail_(Miami)

Atlanta also built their MARTA system back in 1980 around when their MSA was about as large as ours is now, for whatever that's worth.

[tpajr]

Originally Posted by planedition

As I was driving along the Selmon expressway today, I thought they could easily build a rail line down that thing. Do you think Tampa has a population willing to support this kind of public transit?

I dont think so, no. The area barely even supports a bus system.

[chi_tino]

Originally Posted by tpajr

I dont think so, no. The area barely even supports a bus system.

That means nothing to the mass transit crowd. They just love the concept of spending other people's money on fantasyland projects.

See: Tampa downtown trolley, successful in being both a financial failure AND adding to traffic congestion

[gonzoUSF]

Originally Posted by tampagator89

Great map! After you did this I even put together one myself for fun. Lol.

They are fun to play around with aren't they?

Originally Posted by tpajr

I dont think so, no. The area barely even supports a bus system.

That was quite the arrogant statement to make considering you provided no facts to support such a claim. Anyways since you didn't I will. However, the facts I have show HART ridership at record highs, not only is ridership at record highs numbers continue to climb year over year. Lets see here, for January 2013 ridership was up 3.7% over the previous January and tallied 1,249,812 riders. For the previous year over year period, HART carried 14.2 million riders up from 2011's of 13.7. I will let you read the rest of the facts in the links below:
FL: HART Ridership Up 3.7% in January - Mass Transit
Another record-setting year for HART ridership | TBO.com
HART ridership increases again | TBO.com
HART ridership, up 12 percent, sets new annual record - Tampa Bay Business Journal

Originally Posted by chi_tino

That means nothing to the mass transit crowd. They just love the concept of spending other people's money on fantasyland projects.

See: Tampa downtown trolley, successful in being both a financial failure AND adding to traffic congestion

Oh boy, I was waiting for someone to throw the trolly in the mix. I will agree with you that it is a financial disaster, but not because its a trolly or mass transit. The streetcar is currently in the position it is in, because it was poorly planned, poorly designed and poorly executed. The streetcar is 100% catered to tourists rather than the businesses and residents in the downtown area. If it was built to cater to residents and downtown workers it would not be in this kind of shape, again it's built as if its main purpose was for tourists. Bob Buckhorn is currently working to fix this problem and I expect we should see changes coming to it soon.

Oh and the streetcar doesn't effect traffic whatsoever. One it only crosses one major intersection (Adamo Dr) which has TSP and takes a what mere 5-6 seconds to fully cross, the rest of the intersections are fairly light and its crossing has nothing to do with increasing traffic.

[thethinktank]

Originally Posted by algia

The "suburbs" shouldn't be a priority? And you wonder why this will continue to be voted off? This is where MOST ppl who work around DT live!!!!! The ppl who work dt dont all live in South Tampa or in crack town on Florida/Nebraska avenues!!!

Hmm-- ignoring the substance of the commentary and opting for reactionary tactics... so unlike you.

I'll repeat what I said earlier, a few times, that the plan is to build a core rail line within the city then build off of it to connect with extra-urban residential areas.

[thethinktank]

Originally Posted by algia

Park and Ride has to be the dumbest thing ever! Why would you bother taking the car out, drive it a mile to ride the rail? It is a waste if time & gas!

It might sound that way to you, but park-and-ride is actively used in transit systems around the world. When connecting suburbs, the density is too low to serve a larger population by rail. Park-and-ride is probably the only way to make suburban rail transit happen. Tampa's suburbs are far too sprawling to work without park-and-ride.

It's not dumb at all-- it's logical, and it works elsewhere.

[thethinktank]

Originally Posted by TXRyan23

How many cities that have mass transit systems have a city population of less than 500,000 people?

More rhetorical questions. Why don't you do your own research instead of posing demonstrative questions to me? While you're at it, look at comparable population growth rates, city populations when existing rail transit was built, etc.

[EngGirl]

Originally Posted by gonzoUSF

Eventually we are going to have mass transit, no question about it. If Tampa can get a city only referendum on the ballot, it will pass. It would have passed in 2010 had it been city only. The problem is the rest of the county is going to continue to vote it down, because they would be getting taxed for it, but would never use it. The key is getting the city only referendum.

And to say the people of Tampa don't care, is quite generalizing. Tampa, specifically the City of Tampa and its residents do care about mass transit and rail and facts prove that. There are numerous polls that show city residents support light rail. Again it's the rest of the county, the people in the suburbs that do no want mass transit, or at least publicly funded mass transit.

Are you a cutr employee?

[chi_tino]

Originally Posted by gonzoUSF

Oh boy, I was waiting for someone to throw the trolly in the mix. I will agree with you that it is a financial disaster, but not because its a trolly or mass transit. The streetcar is currently in the position it is in, because it was poorly planned, poorly designed and poorly executed. The streetcar is 100% catered to tourists rather than the businesses and residents in the downtown area. If it was built to cater to residents and downtown workers it would not be in this kind of shape, again it's built as if its main purpose was for tourists. Bob Buckhorn is currently working to fix this problem and I expect we should see changes coming to it soon.

Oh and the streetcar doesn't effect traffic whatsoever. One it only crosses one major intersection (Adamo Dr) which has TSP and takes a what mere 5-6 seconds to fully cross, the rest of the intersections are fairly light and its crossing has nothing to do with increasing traffic.

I was on the Board of one of the entities that originally funded the streetcar (this entity's contribution was burned through quickly), and attended city meetings on it. It was a disaster from the start and continues to be a disaster, but the whole concept is seemingly immune to criticism.

1. This shows that even when a project is a financial failure (and by every account it is), IT WILL NEVER DIE. Ever. No one likes to call a public project a failure, so it will continue to support public monies being flushed down the toilet in perpetuity. Buckhorn (and his successor, and the mayor after that) will continue to "work on fixing it" by wasting more and more money on it.

Other cities are in the same bind with their light rail systems. They spend hundreds of millions or billions on it, then find out that the ongoing revenues will only pay a fraction of the investment and the ongoing cost. Then what? More debt, higher taxes and selective shutdowns of newly-built stations/lines to stem the bleeding.

2. You may have not lived downtown pre-trolley, but Channelside Drive goes from two lanes past the TBT Forum down to one lane through Channelside before expanding again north of Channelside. This is because the trolley forced the street to become one lane in each direction. This causes delays through this area every day during rush hour and before and after Forum events. They replaced lanes of traffic with an alternative that carries less than 1% of the capacity of the lost roadway and creates a crash-prone mess at the Beneficial/Channelside intersection with lanes appearing and disappearing as you make your way through it.

Like almost all transit systems in non-high-density cities, it is an expensive folly and an increase to traffic congestion. The light rail fantasy would be this foolish x100, and the "high"-speed system between Florida cities would be this foolish x1,000.

Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.