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Was Sandra a great player? I'm surprised she won twice.
Define great? Personally I would say not great because I value certain things and she doesn't have all of them. As a matter of fact I suspect that our favorite players and winners are a reflection of who we are or would like to be.
Sandra won because she could figure out what was going on by reading people or getting people to tell her things and had the ability to think through moves to figure out what to do. Not bad. Her game was to play under the radar as long as possible
Queen of "I'll vote for anyone as long as it isn't me"
and then at the very end make some moves based on her observations to make it to the final 2 or 3. Its a low risk strategy that she was able to make work because she does have game ability. She is one of the few successful women on Survivor who didn't use her gender to get ahead, a strategy I absolutely hate.
Low risk strategies seem to get rewarded a lot but I don't admire them, don't like watching them and don't think they are great. Winning doesn't make a player great or the best, it just makes them the winner. I do think she is a very good player because even if I don't like her beginning strategy she has figure out something that worked for her and had the smarts to make it happen. She was occasionally in some tough spots and managed to squirm out of them.
To be great, players are people who create new strategy, new moves, are leaders, risk takers. Richard Hatch came up with the alliance which is still key in the game today. The first person to fake an immunity idol, people who see a blind side coming and manage to shift the vote, double blindsides. I absolutely hate Parvati but she could think and she had game.
I don't understand all the people who can't separate their personal feelings about Russell from their game playing feelings. I don't like him and his verbal spewings made me mad but I have to admire his first 2 games. If you asked me I say Russell didn't seem committed to this third season, I don't know why he agreed to play 3 practically back to back seasons, it has to be way grueling and it didn't seem like he was giving it anything.
There is a tendency to conflate several questions.
1) Does one think Russhole is the best player ever? For me that's a total no.
YES
2) Does one think he was the best player in any season? Also a total no. He never won, ergo, he was not.
YES At least the fans of Survivor could see that.
3) Does one enjoy watching the show with him on it? Yeah, I enjoy hoping he'll suffer. There's no doubt he creates interesting situations.
YES
4) Does one think he is admirable and/or likeable? I definitely don't. He comes across as the sort of person I hate in real life.
NO
Quote:
Originally Posted by PippySkiddles
can't rep you again,yet-but totally agree with you on all 4 points.
I am SO tired of the Russell talk. He's gone, thank goodness.
I never saw him do anything outstanding-never. Period. He is a legend in his own mind.
He IS a Survivor legend.
Quote:
Originally Posted by j_k_k
The 5) I probably should have included: was Russhole a capable and dangerous player, one to be reckoned with? I don't think anyone doubts it. But that's not the same as anointing him the greatest ever. He ain't. He never won. One can enjoy watching him be a jerk while hoping he gets a loathsome tropical pestilence.
He never won because the mamby-pamby cry babies he played with got thier widdle feelings hurt.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gobrien
Was Sandra a great player? I'm surprised she won twice.
Just curious. Where did you get the information these people never saw the show before? I thought I heard several of them say they had watched both him and Boston Rob in previous games.
The vast majority of a cast is made up with people recruited off the streets and aspiring models/actors/etc. It is sprinkled in with a handful of applicants. It is safe to say the majority didn't watch Survivor.
Rooster Ralph (i.e. Russell biggest opposition) is a fan of the show/applicant so obviously he was aware of him and his gameplay.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Giesela
Her game was to play under the radar as long as possible
So much that she told Russell/Parvati pretty much the first episode that she was gunning for them. She said that every episode. That to me is not "playing under the radar".
So... to answer the other post...
Quote:
Originally Posted by gobrien
Was Sandra a great player? I'm surprised she won twice.
Not at all. She just happened to be the worst of all of the people at the end (i.e. the one that didn't hurt anyones feelings because she never was the one making the moves).
I also don't understand why there is so much Russel hate.
Russel changed the game of Survivor. Rooster guy spent time looking for the idol because of Russel. Russel found not one, but two. No one did that before him. No one even tried. He made it to the final two TWICE, while being a big jerk.
Liek him or not, he was good and he changed this game. Part of survivor is being a people person in some way adn figuring out if the jury is the type to vote based on game play, or the type of vore based on who we like better.... or dislike less. I think Russel had the misfortune of playing with people that were determined NOT to let him win. In fact, this third tribe was pretty much the same.
To me social game means reading people so you can use that to make strategy, implement tactical decisions, manipulate them. I agree with who said it doesn't mean butt-kiss, coat tail ride, play someone's little flirty ***** wife. And in particular it doesn't mean that if you get voted off you go to Tribal Council and base your vote on bitter vindictiveness because someone had the audacity to out play you.
I may not like Russell but he did play the game and for him to come up voteless says as much about the other players as it does him and not in a good way. I don't like Russell but even if he had only played his first season and even if he hadn't burned socks I'll remember him and his game LONG after I forget.....Natalie?
.
Was Sandra a great player? I'm surprised she won twice.
Winning twice is absolute, incontrovertible proof what a great player she was. Winning once would prove she was very good. Winning a second time is just ridiculously impressive. And I think she's only been on twice, and won both times, so she has won 100% of the time--the second with at least something of a target on her back (not as much, though, given that other past winners were on that season too).
He never won because the mamby-pamby cry babies he played with got thier widdle feelings hurt.
Now, Tami, you know that isn't a reasonable explanation. He never won because in the process of getting to the end, he so alienated people that he lost their votes. He pitched eight innings of good baseball and then got his jock knocked off in the 9th because he didn't pace himself. What you do to get to the finale, vs. what it will cost you in terms of votes at that finale, is the fundamental juxtaposition of Survivor. If it weren't for that, this game would be a lot duller.
To call the voters crybabies for not voting for him is not fair to them at all. He made enemies, which is bad gameplay. If he were that great a player, he would have found a way to end up next to someone they hated even more, so they would vote for him even as they threw up in their mouths (a Vecepia-like situation). He wasn't that good, or he would have won. His whole pitch of "I've been a jerk, but yall are obligated to vote for me" is a crock.
Now, Tami, you know that isn't a reasonable explanation. He never won because in the process of getting to the end, he so alienated people that he lost their votes. He pitched eight innings of good baseball and then got his jock knocked off in the 9th because he didn't pace himself. What you do to get to the finale, vs. what it will cost you in terms of votes at that finale, is the fundamental juxtaposition of Survivor. If it weren't for that, this game would be a lot duller.
To call the voters crybabies for not voting for him is not fair to them at all. He made enemies, which is bad gameplay. If he were that great a player, he would have found a way to end up next to someone they hated even more, so they would vote for him even as they threw up in their mouths (a Vecepia-like situation). He wasn't that good, or he would have won. His whole pitch of "I've been a jerk, but yall are obligated to vote for me" is a crock.
I disagree that this is entirely true. As discussed people in the past have voted for people they didn't like because they were good strategic players. It should not be a popularity contest which is what you are suggesting. I do find your point about bringing someone more hated interesting but in Russells case that's hard. Essentially he did do that with respects for Natalie. I could NOT have voted for Natalie she was such a colorless dishrag. I'm assuming Russell thought how could anyone vote for her over me if they respect the game and I agree. I think he overlooked the power of a good looking girl vs. just about anyone. I do think he could have ended up with votes if he had been able to do a better job with his argument at final TC. But I'm not convinced that even if he weren't a meglomanic that he has the verbal skills to make that work. I might even go so far as to say he defaults to his standard bs because he lacks the verbal skills to express himself any other way.
I disagree that this is entirely true. As discussed people in the past have voted for people they didn't like because they were good strategic players. It should not be a popularity contest which is what you are suggesting. I do find your point about bringing someone more hated interesting but in Russells case that's hard. Essentially he did do that with respects for Natalie. I could NOT have voted for Natalie she was such a colorless dishrag. I'm assuming Russell thought how could anyone vote for her over me if they respect the game and I agree. I think he overlooked the power of a good looking girl vs. just about anyone. I do think he could have ended up with votes if he had been able to do a better job with his argument at final TC. But I'm not convinced that even if he weren't a meglomanic that he has the verbal skills to make that work. I might even go so far as to say he defaults to his standard bs because he lacks the verbal skills to express himself any other way.
I don't think it's just a popularity contest, but there is an equation there, in which it's a question of how much you subtract from your appeal as the price of reaching the end.
People end up on the jury, losing their chance at the money, which they must then vote for someone else to receive. Make enemies on the jury while eliminating them, and it's bad gameplay. One may, with consummate skill found in a great player (and lacking in Russhole), reverse that impact at final Tribal. And if you're up against someone more appealing than you to the jury, as Natalie evidently was, that's a problem. If you are so hated that it's impossible to bring anyone more hated, well, then you're Russhole and you're hosed. You're so hosed that in your third season, by the time anyone in the game has seen you on TV, they'll throw a challenge just to be rid of you. I think Russhole's early exit this season proves that he was only effective because not since Fairplay had contestants seen such an incarnation of scumtacularity, and it took them awhile to assimilate and properly penalize it. Once he was up against a group who knew what he was about, they actually tanked just so they could dump him. Great immunity idol hunter, mediocre Survivor player overall.
Wow! Considering how he pushed David Cassidy a couple of times during their "The Apprentice" task, it would appear he can't keep his hands or his temper to himslef. Cassidy was brave confronting him about it.
All I thought while watching that show at a friend's house was Richard really didn't learn his lesson about keeping his hands and penis to himself. Remember wasn't her name Sue, the truck driver, that called him a snake in their season then quit in the next time they came back because he touched her with his naked penis? I thought Richard was on house arrest living with his sister?
Leaving Fairplay out of it between Richard and Russell who would get the most votes of "hated" player? I'd vote for Russell most likely. All the great things he did during his seasons get squashed by his mouth, personality and just plain ewwwwwwwwness. (Sorry tami do you still love me?)
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(Sorry tami do you still love me?
)
