Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
My mask as you put it was never on, as I am forthright as I can be within this medium. Link something to me about the "old UVF" so I have something other than just your praise of them and a picture purported to be a bunch of nurses that were presumably part of some medical unit.
BTW - Many people on the other side of the spectrum say the old IRA or Fenian Brotherhood are not the same as the current Provo's, and certainly not the extreme splinter groups.
While that might be true, how often do people differentiate between what something was, vs. what it has morphed into?
My issue with some from your perspective is calling one side an army or the righteous side, while condemning the other side as terrorists.
The Irish (and/or IRA sympathizers) on the other hand do the same by calling them freedom fighters or an army, which is what their acronym stands for. To me you lose the distinction of being a freedom fighter if you target innocent victims.
Now I understand the Nationalists also felt the IRA was the only LE they could turn to, since the RUC/PSNI was a wolf in sheeps clothing.
But the tit for tat killings between Republicans and Loyalists removed any peace officer standing they may have had.
I never had to grow up in that type of environment, so it is hard for me to say who were the good and bad guys.
Much of this has been going on for well before either of us were born. Americans are sensitive to it, because our revolutionary founding fathers were called terrorists by the British. This was in no small part because they refused to engage in the battle tactics that the British had superior advantage in. So the position of the IRA supporters is likely the same. To me, that goes out the window when innocent civilians are intentionally targeted.
Targeting commanders, soldiers and even the police is one thing. When you start blowing up regular Joe, Mary & Johnny, that is something all together different.
`
The UVF was organised and went as a unit to fight in WW 1. They won 4 VCs
Willy Redmond was to be killed at the Battle of Mesines four and a half years later, his body was recovered from the battlefield by members of the UVF enrolled in the Ulster Division.
The UVF camp at Baronscourt formed a fascinating cross-section of society. Among the officers and NCOs attending were an auctioneer, a barrister, a chauffer, a cooper, a fishery inspector, a french polisher and a watchmaker. The group included six clergymen.
Unquestionably the camp would have enhanced the esprit de corps of the Tyrone UVF and, in some ways, would have improved its military efficiency, but many of the lectures were delivered by army officers whose experience of war had been in the outposts of the British Empire. Captain Bell had summed this up well - when referring to the Co Down UVF's camp of instruction. In 1914 I brought the Ballynahinch UVF company for a week's training from Monday to Saturday.
In some respects, however, the UVF had an undoubted modernity and in no area ws this more the case than in the organisation of motor transport. It is interesting to compare the 827 motor cars and 15 motor cycles which the British Expeditionary Force possessed at the outbreak of the Great War with the 500 motor vehicles assembled by the UVF at Larne. The UVF had its own communications system, for it became clear that the telephone and postal services were vunerable to interception. A central ' Ulster Signalling and Despatch Riding Corps' was established.
The medical services of the UVF were also organised. A directive issued by the doctor in charge of the North Down Regiment, 1st Battalion, instructed that the battalion's First Aid Corps should be under direct control of a 'Battalion Surgeon'...The First Aid and Stretcher Corps will accompany the battalion in the field, marching in the rear and will form a dressing camp. The wounded will be collected and carried back to the field dressing camp by the stretcher bearers from whence they will be conveyed back to the nearest hospital..
One respect in which the UVF was a modern army was the importance of women's role within it. Many women were not content to be nurses and caterers - though some did these jobs and went on to nurse in the Great War. Women were also involved in the Signallling Corps of the UVF and some, like Mina Lenox Conyngham, of Springhill, found themselves out at night on hilltop signalling messages to dstant locations.
‘In a letter to the mayor of Derry (Mr R. N. Johnston) on Irish achievements in the war, Capt. Gwynn recalls that he saw Derrymen at a place where, “there was no thought of anything but our common credit” on the ridge in front of Messines, where the 16th and 36th Divisions lay side by side. “Once it happened”, he says, “that our right flank was moved up a little and I was the officer sent up to take over the section of the line from the Ulster troops who were holding it. They were the Inniskillings, and the commanding officer, Colonel McRory, showed me round the line. All the trenches had names that were very familiar to me, but at last we came to a very strong point at the head of a mineshaft, where there was a great accumulation of sandbags. Col. McRory said to me rather sadly: ‘We call this place Derry Walls, but I suppose that when your fellows come in here they will be changing all the names’. I said to him: ‘we won’t change a name of them, and we will hold Derry Walls for you’. We did hold Derry Walls for four months and gave it back to the Ulster people and it was from there they went over the top on that day, when the two divisions, side by side, captured Messines and Wytschate”.’
‘Number 1 Section I found had not been able to start work owing to hostile shelling. Lt. Thorne was just starting them in conjunction with 16th Division Royal Munster Fusiliers. So Ulster and the South of Ireland consolidate a position. The Orange and Green working together and blended well.’
‘On one occasion there was a slight adjustment of our front near Wulverghem. A battalion of the Dublin 16th (Irish) Division took over from one of our battalions. I think indeed from the YCVs. As the Dublins came in, one of them remarked, “Glory be to God will you look at the Carson’s Boys”. From whom there was a reply, “Get the Hell out of that you bloody Fenians”.’
History Ireland
The UVF was organised and went as a unit to fight in WW 1. They won 4 VCs
My apologies for the late reply, but it took me a while to find time to read through the info you left for me.
Thanks for taking the time to do so.
I must admit to being educated on the historical UVF vs. it's present incarnation. It would seem as if it was an honorable group dedicated to fighting in war and not reflective of present day terrorist thugs.
As it relates to this subject, one wonders what the descendants of those men & women today think of how the name has been sullied in NI?
Additionally, if there were to be a unified Ireland, would any pangs of pride come from those who would associate the old honorable fighting spirit of UVF proper, with a modern day resistance to governance from Dublin?
My apologies for the late reply, but it took me a while to find time to read through the info you left for me.
Thanks for taking the time to do so.
I must admit to being educated on the historical UVF vs. it's present incarnation. It would seem as if it was an honorable group dedicated to fighting in war and not reflective of present day terrorist thugs.
As it relates to this subject, one wonders what the descendants of those men & women today think of how the name has been sullied in NI?
Additionally, if there were to be a unified Ireland, would any pangs of pride come from those who would associate the old honorable fighting spirit of UVF proper, with a modern day resistance to governance from Dublin?
Vector, am grateful the you took the time to read my post. There is so much propaganda promoted sometimes it is hard to get the facts. Yes, they were to be an honourable fighting force and sometimes it was hard to keep the them in line. But keep them in line they did. Your question is a hard one to answer. All I can say is when Ulster lost 3 of its counties to Dublin rule they did not launch terror attacks in those counties in order to win them back. They accepted the wishes of the majority in the 3 counties. However, this was never reciprocated by Dublin who immediately started a terror campaign (backed by Collins ) against NI. Would it be different today? That I don't know.
Meeke was from Barvarden in Co Antrim and a member of the Ulster Volunteer Force.
Soldier story: Willie Redmond and John Meeke
November 19 2014
They were an odd couple of the war; John Meeke and Willie Redmond - one an Ulster Unionist and the other an impassioned Irish Nationalist.
But their names were aligned in the history books of the Great War as a symbol of unity of their two very different divisions.
John Meeke was a 23-year-old private in the 11th Battalion Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers, who were part of the 36th Ulster Division.
Willie Redmond was an officer in the 6th Battalion, Royal Irish Regiment, who were part of the 16th Irish Division.
Willie was also a nationalist MP at Westminster and his brother was John Redmond - the leader of the Irish Parliamentary Party, who famously called for Irishmen to enlist for the war believing that Home Rule would definitely be introduced.
Meeke was from Benvarden in Co Antrim and a member of the Ulster Volunteer Force who thought that by signing up for the war they were guaranteeing there would be no Home Rule.
However, their hugely different views ended up side by side in the war. This was particularly poignant in the Messines Ridge in Belgium on June 7, 1917 when the unionists and republicans marched together into battle.
Redmond and Meeke forged a bond that highlighted and demonstrated the relationships and the unity that came out of the heat of battle.
One observer of studies of the war said: "It was all about humanity."
Meeke was a stretcher-bearer - while Willie led his men into No Man's Land.
During the advance, Willie was mowed down by enemy fire and lay seriously wounded.
Meeke, searching for injured soldiers saw him fall to the ground and reached him with the stretcher-bearer - dodging bullets to make it to his side.
He bandaged Willie's wounds but as he did so he was hit on his left side.
Willie told Meeke to pull back to British lines but his orders were disobeyed. Meeke was hit again and for a second time refused to save himself.
The two men were then rescued by comrades but Willie died several hours later. Meeke returned to hunt for more casualties - and was eventually persuaded to go for treatment to his own injuries.
Meeke was awarded the Military Medal for his heroism but he was seriously injured by another bullet just before the Armistice in 1918.
He later returned to Co Antrim where he worked as a gardener. He died from tuberculosis in December 1923 aged 28.
For many who study the Great War and the Battle of Messines, Willie Redmond and John Meeke's roles are just as crucial to the understanding of the conflict and Ireland's contribution to it as the Somme.
Belfast Telegraph. Soldier story: Willie Redmond and John Meeke - BelfastTelegraph.co.uk
ORANGEMAN'S BRAVERY RECALLED BY SONG
The remarkable story of a Co Antrim Orangeman, who came to the aid of an Irish nationalist MP on the battlefield during the First World War, is now being told though a collection of songs and poetry.
The selfless act by Private John Meeke, who tended to the injured Major Willie Redmond during the Battle of Messines, is the subject of a new CD, available to the wider public.
Steven Phillips said the CD was an original work telling the '' gripping story ''of Meeke's actions on the front line.
'' A proud Orangeman, Meeke threw differences aside when he embarked on the heroic battlefield rescue of committed Irish national and Westminster MP, Major William Redmond,'' he said.
''The impact made by this courageous act of heroism was such that its ripples are still being felt today, across towns, communities and the families of Meeke and Redmond. For the first time, this staggering tale of bravery and humanity will be told far and wide though a powerful combination of song and poetry.''
He added: '' It is a story that will invite you to share in the drama and the horror of war, but most of all remind you that on the battlefield backgrounds are forgotten, lines are crossed and legends are made.
Vector, am grateful the you took the time to read my post. There is so much propaganda promoted sometimes it is hard to get the facts. Yes, they were to be an honourable fighting force and sometimes it was hard to keep the them in line. But keep them in line they did. Your question is a hard one to answer. All I can say is when Ulster lost 3 of its counties to Dublin rule they did not launch terror attacks in those counties in order to win them back. They accepted the wishes of the majority in the 3 counties. However, this was never reciprocated by Dublin who immediately started a terror campaign (backed by Collins ) against NI. Would it be different today? That I don't know.
Hey, part of the reason I am on the forum is to educate myself. I certainly do not claim to be an expert on all the history or current RoI/NI issues. That said, I have probably kept up with the politics and players more than most.
Sadly I could ripple off the names of most of the leaders of the major parties from the last two decades.
You say that the UVF did not engage is terror attacks when Ulster lost 3 counties to Dublin. That seems an interesting way to put it, since many Irish did not accept the idea of the 6 counties remaining British. That among other things essentially created a civil war among the Irish.
Unlike in India where Britain was forced out (and did not keep a portion), Ireland never had the chance to peacefully come together as one nation. Do you think the UVF would have gone to the bullet vs. the ballot?
Of course some would argue that India was doomed to a civil war based on the Muslim minority demanding a Muslim run government.
I thought it very interesting that Gandhi offered to allow Jinnah to lead India, but his advisers said the Hindu populace would never stand for it.
In regard to the group that holds the modern day title of UVF, you have really not given your view of them. Since you respected the old guard so to speak, I'd think the modern day incarnation would not be to your liking?
Hey, part of the reason I am on the forum is to educate myself. I certainly do not claim to be an expert on all the history or current RoI/NI issues. That said, I have probably kept up with the politics and players more than most.
Sadly I could ripple off the names of most of the leaders of the major parties from the last two decades.
You say that the UVF did not engage is terror attacks when Ulster lost 3 counties to Dublin. That seems an interesting way to put it, since many Irish did not accept the idea of the 6 counties remaining British. That among other things essentially created a civil war among the Irish.
Unlike in India where Britain was forced out (and did not keep a portion), Ireland never had the chance to peacefully come together as one nation. Do you think the UVF would have gone to the bullet vs. the ballot?
Of course some would argue that India was doomed to a civil war based on the Muslim minority demanding a Muslim run government.
I thought it very interesting that Gandhi offered to allow Jinnah to lead India, but his advisers said the Hindu populace would never stand for it.
In regard to the group that holds the modern day title of UVF, you have really not given your view of them. Since you respected the old guard so to speak, I'd think the modern day incarnation would not be to your liking?
`
'' many Irish did not accept the idea of the 6 counties remaining British.'' Yes, true and they launched terror attacks on the 6 counties in a bid to force them into an all Ireland. However, loyalists in Ulster did not launch terror attacks on the 3 counties in a bid to force them into Ulster ( 9 counties ). In conversation with an Irish republican he raised this issue saying that in a 9 county Ulster we would be outnumbered. I replied by saying ''yes as republicans are outnumbered in the 6 counties but what if loyalists in Ulster did the same as the IRA and murdered and bombed in those 3 counties despite the people there being for Dublin rule.'' This is exactly what the IRA have done in Ulster. He never answered
Yes, I have no time for the present day 'UVF'. They also are a terror group and a mirror image of the IRA.
'' many Irish did not accept the idea of the 6 counties remaining British.'' Yes, true and they launched terror attacks on the 6 counties in a bid to force them into an all Ireland. However, loyalists in Ulster did not launch terror attacks on the 3 counties in a bid to force them into Ulster ( 9 counties ). In conversation with an Irish republican he raised this issue saying that in a 9 county Ulster we would be outnumbered. I replied by saying ''yes as republicans are outnumbered in the 6 counties but what if loyalists in Ulster did the same as the IRA and murdered and bombed in those 3 counties despite the people there being for Dublin rule.'' This is exactly what the IRA have done in Ulster. He never answered
Yes, I have no time for the present day 'UVF'. They also are a terror group and a mirror image of the IRA.
Why would loyalists launch terror attacks for the 3 counties of Ulster that became part of the Irish Republic when those 3 counties were majority Catholic and it would have added more Catholics to the population? The exclusion of those 3 counties was done deliberately so that the 6 counties would be majority Protestant.
With partition they wanted to exclude as many Catholics as possible.
The reason why the IRA started their campaign was due to the treatment of Catholics. The IRA got a big boost in recruitment after Bloody Sunday.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
