Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
supernerdgirl, it is sad that this happened to your town, but it doesn't have anything to do with the morality of the people who live there, which is the title of the thread.
normie: thank you! I remember 17. I had a boyfriend. We were going to get married. I had no need to go to college. If I had married him, I would have ended up working full-time for forever (if we had even stayed married). Times change.
I think a clear distinction must be made amongst the wide variety of suburbs we have in this nation, since everyone is apparently under the assumption of "suburb=immoral." PittNurse and I have personally butted heads on this issue countless times, but she's finally managed to cram a nice thick crow into my mouth (something very few on this forum are able to do, so that should be a credit to her).
PittNurse would continually describe her own suburban environment that was 180 degrees different from my own. I view my own suburb as being the epitome of materialism, consumerism, and gluttony, and she views her suburb much differently. I finally spent nearly an hour the other evening checking out her suburb, Louisville, CO, via Google Earth, and I must say I was highly impressed. Yes, the houses all more or less looked alike (blech), but not only did every little cul-de-sac have sidewalks, but every subdivision had wide sidewalks and/or bike paths connecting them to one another, to other streets, and to parks, schools, and a few other different zones. One could realistically live in Louisville and walk to quite a few amenities.
Flash forward over 2,000 miles east to my own Pennsylvania suburb, and life is a completely different story. I live in an isolated residential subdivision of thirty homes that has no sidewalks and has its sole entry located just off a busy four-lane commuter corridor. When I go running for exercise, I've been whacked by passing rear-view mirrors on vehicles, have tripped and fallen over potholes, and am routinely nearly hit by vehicles making right-hand turns on red without yielding to pedestrians in the crosswalks (or lackthereof around here). Over 50% of my running route doesn't have sidewalks, and a good 25% of that doesn't even have shoulders, forcing me at times to slow traffic as I run in the street. From my subdivision you can't safely walk anywhere. The nearest grocery store is only 1/4 mile away as the crow flies, but we have to drive two miles to it because of property boundaries. There isn't a single house of worship in my suburb; 100% of our residents must drive to a house of worship as a result. My best friend's family lives in another isolated subdivision adjacent to the high school, yet most in her development drove to school because property boundaries here made it impossible for them to walk to school (an issue I see Louisville's subdivisions rectified by leaving just enough common space for these interconnecting bike/walking paths).
While Louisville hasn't directly drained any sort of vitality out of Denver's core, my own suburb has decimated Pittston, a once-thriving downtown area that is now at only 1/3 of its peak population of 21,000. Here are some photos of what the suburbs here have directly done to the city of Pittston's Main Street due to years of cookie-cutter sprawl:
I just turned 21. My parents both grew up in this town and can recall the days when this main drag had a Woolworth's, JCPenney, movie theater, and various mom-and-pop stores and restaurants. Ironically, a family restaurant in my suburb that relocated here from this same Main Street has a large interior mural of the community's downtown in its heyday. I suppose this is the family's way of "repenting" for contributing to its demise.
I know I'm getting off topic here, so I apologize in advance. But I can't resist noting that the 3 that really made a difference in my life were:
1. Realizing college was a worthwhile thing to do.
2. Moving to California--the energy and positive attitude there changed my life! I would never have started my own business, or done half the things I've done, if I hadn't been infected by the positive energy of L.A. I'd still be sitting around, complaining about life but afraid to actually DO much because I was sure I would never succeed.
3. Moving out of unsafe neighborhoods. (Which for me meant moving out of the city--but I would have been just as smart to move to a safer section of the city.)
I grew up in Boston. When I married, we moved to burbs on the south shore not far from the Cape. I love it, love it, love it. I did both and both have many positives, but I enjoy the burbs because I am not spending 30 mins stuck in traffic and yeah by the way I save on gas cuz I am not stuck in city traffic and polluting at the same time. Who cares what type of home someone buys, I don't and why would your opinion influence the type of real estate i choose to live in.
supernerdgirl, it is sad that this happened to your town, but it doesn't have anything to do with the morality of the people who live there, which is the title of the thread.
This is where you and I still butt heads though, unfortunately. I attended my most recent community supervisors' public meeting, and people clapped and smiled when they learned that a long-stalled shopping center project that would be anchored by a Wal-Mart Supercenter (as it abandons another location just 1/4 mile away) would start construction in March 2008. I was the only one sitting there in complete disgust. More open space will be devoured for another shopping complex that, ironically, will be adjacent to our subdivision yet NOT within walking distance due to chain-link fencing being built around the perimeter. The end result? Initially it will only be a vacant shell of the former Wal-Mart building---a reminder of poor land usage policy of the late-1990s. However, I've taken the initiative to research this developer's prior projects that are anchored by Wal-Mart Supercenters, and the prognosis is not good for the community at-large. The tenants largely consists of places like Hallmark, Radio Shack, Chinese buffet, Fashion Bug, etc., all of which currently exist in another struggling strip mall just 1/4-mile away on another commercial artery in my community. When I inquired what would happen to the existing strip mall once the incoming one lured all of its tenants away, I was met with a "deer in headlights look" by our supervisors, who apparently had never even considered this angle beforehand because they were blinded by greed.
If people truly were concerned with "morals," then they would see something terribly WRONG about devouring vast swaths of open space for new big-box stores at the expense of causing older areas of sprawl to abandon. Ironically, this same older sprawl corridor that will be decimated by this newest one in 2008 was the same corridor that initially killed the downtown whose photos I posted above. I'm sure in 2030 we'll see yet another new wave of sprawl killing this 2008 wave of sprawl while the sheep in PA's suburbs once again clap and cheer. As others have said, as gasoline prices locally hover around $3.20/gallon (and higher in other parts of the nation I'm sure), most people are starting to realize that it is wrong for their elected officials to continue to permit sprawl to occur further and further and FURTHER away from developed areas. Unfortunately, the locals here in PA just don't seem to "get it" yet, even though I've submitted various letters to the editors of local newspapers, politicians, etc. about this issue, along with speaking out at community meetings. Most get offended that a "kid" is trying to preach to them; I plan to approach the podium once my prediction of the new shopping mall killing the old one comes to fruition in 2009 just to say "told ya so!"
Last edited by SteelCityRising; 12-02-2007 at 04:23 PM..
Reason: Typo
Thanks for the compliment, SWB! I really appreciate it, coming from a respected member (I am not being sarcastic)! I would like to make a few corrections to your description of Louisville. The houses in many subdvisions do look similar, not the same. The first subdivision we lived in had 4 basic models, with many options. No one house looked the same as another, though, as all were built by the same builder within the same time frame, they looked similar. But every subdivision in this city looks different from the others. Different builders, different ages of homes, different prices of homes (entry-level vs upscale, etc). I live in one of the few subdivisions where all the houses were not built by the same builder, therefore, all look a little different. Yes, you can walk to many places here. I think everyone lives within walking distance of a grocery store. Most kids can walk to elemetary school. There are several churches, and if you are of those religions, many can walk to church. So yeah, not all suburbs are created equal. Don't paint them all with the same broad brush. And do not accuse people who live there of immorality. Even in some of the more stereotypical suburbs here, a lot of people live close to their jobs. Not every suburbanite is driving 30 miles to a downtown job.
Thanks for the photos, SWB. You know, I've always meant to ask you if you've made a concrete plan for your own course of action. I presume you intend to buy your own home in Scranton (or Pittston... from your photos I gather you love Pittston just as much and it might need you more).
Living in a town is a good started, but what else do you have in mind? What kind of business do you intend to open to help bring people back to your town? You could probably buy several investment properties and turn them into showplaces. Your town could probably use a good grocery store with healthy produce, too.
I get the feeling you will accomplish a lot. Have you started makingplans yet, and if so what do you have in mind?
Thanks for the compliment, SWB! I really appreciate it, coming from a respected member (I am not being sarcastic)! I would like to make a few corrections to your description of Louisville. The houses in many subdvisions do look similar, not the same. The first subdivision we lived in had 4 basic models, with many options. No one house looked the same as another, though, as all were built by the same builder within the same time frame, they looked similar. But every subdivision in this city looks different from the others. Different builders, different ages of homes, different prices of homes (entry-level vs upscale, etc). I live in one of the few subdivisions where all the houses were not built by the same builder, therefore, all look a little different. Yes, you can walk to many places here. I think everyone lives within walking distance of a grocery store. Most kids can walk to elemetary school. There are several churches, and if you are of those religions, many can walk to church. So yeah, not all suburbs are created equal. Don't paint them all with the same broad brush. And do not accuse people who live there of immorality. Even in some of the more stereotypical suburbs here, a lot of people live close to their jobs. Not every suburbanite is driving 30 miles to a downtown job.
I agree with most of what you said, but we still have to make a distinction between how suburbs also vary by region. It sounds as if Coloradoans (Coloradans?) have learned from the mistakes of suburbs in other areas and are adjusting their land usage policies accordingly to build suburbs that work.
I'm very, very bitter about my own suburb for being over 200 years old while still not grasping basic urban planning concepts yet. I don't lie when I saw that my particular township is 95% sidewalk-less and shoulder-less, making walking to destinations impossible (unless you want to nearly cause car accidents like I always do as I don't care what happens to drivers who don't wish to "share the roadway.") Both of my parents worked growing up, leaving me living in this socially-isolated subdivision with no children my age to play with, no parks to walk to, no place to ride a bike, etc. This is why I evolved into the long-winded boring sack of sh*t I am today, as I utilized my free time reading and studying instead of enjoying my childhood.
I see people who live in Scranton and wonder how they could all be so malcontented living in a city with tree-lined streets, SIDEWALKS, mixed zoning, neighborhood schools, block parties, front porches, crosswalks, etc. People in that city are dying to get out here to where I live for the larger lots, larger homes, larger garages, autocentricism, etc., and I'm dying to get to where they live (which will be in 2009) for just the opposite reasons.
I should probably get off my soap box now; thanks for letting me vent a bit!
SWB--May I make a suggestion? Why not set up a separate bank account called "The Sidewalk Fund." Contribute to it now and then. At your age, you need most of your money, but every once in awhile you will have some spare change to put in the sidewalk fund. When someone you know dies, put come money into the fund in their memory.
Keep the fund going for years without worrying about what you will use it for.
Down the line, you will go through a mid life crisis. Or, maybe you will just hit the perfect opportunity. Use the money to build sidewalks. It doesn't have to be in Pittston.
Growing up in a suburb without sidewalks has shaped you in a certain way. At the end of your life, when you look back on your accomplishments, your sbility to bring sidewalks to some other town will give a great deal of satisfaction.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Suburbs vs. Su-b--u---r----b----s....
I attended my most recent community supervisors' public meeting, and people clapped and smiled when they learned that a long-stalled shopping center project that would be anchored by a Wal-Mart Supercenter (as it abandons another location just 1/4 mile away) would start construction in March 2008. I was the only one sitting there in complete disgust. More open space will be devoured for another shopping complex that, ironically, will be adjacent to our subdivision yet NOT within walking distance due to chain-link fencing being built around the perimeter. The end result? Initially it will only be a vacant shell of the former Wal-Mart building---a reminder of poor land usage policy of the late-1990s. However, I've taken the initiative to research this developer's prior projects that are anchored by Wal-Mart Supercenters, and the prognosis is not good for the community at-large. The tenants largely consists of places like Hallmark, Radio Shack, Chinese buffet, Fashion Bug, etc., all of which currently exist in another struggling strip mall just 1/4-mile away on another commercial artery in my community. When I inquired what would happen to the existing strip mall once the incoming one lured all of its tenants away, I was met with a "deer in headlights look" by our supervisors, who apparently had never even considered this angle beforehand because they were blinded by greed. 
