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^^ That's a good point.. summer heat itself shouldn't be the only requirement.. otherwise you'd have places like Shenyang, China listed as subtropical which obviously they aren't because they are much too cold in winter. I think near year round plant growth is important in subtropical climates even in colder subtropical climates where growth may be slow but still happening in the coldest months.
The Scilly Isles do have 8 months or more with a mean temperature of 10C or above (April - November).
Interesting. But I follow the original Koeppen scheme, and the Scilly Isles, while they do have very warm winters, fall quite short of meeting the 22C criteria for subtropical summer heat. It has cooler summers than even most of England. So it's simply a very mild form of Cfb climate .
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It probably feels chilly a lot of the time though.
Those sort of mornings in winter would feel warm to me, but I guess it would feel chilly if it's in the 40's with a rain and wind storm. Still, it's no Kerguelen. That's chilly.
However, if one is less cold-hardy than I am, and feels chilly at any temperature below 50F, then the Isles of Scilly would feel very off for a subtropical climate, with this hypothetical person feeling chilled at least in the morning 7 months out of the year.
As for the hardiness zones and so forth, that is an entirely different order of climate classification than what we're talking about here. Also, the hardiness zones and heat zones and so forth do have a general correlation to existing climate types anyway.
For year-round plant growth, temperatures above 50F year round ensure that all plants (well, except tropical ones anyway) continue to grow; however, plant growth still proceeds in winters well below that threshold. For example, the types of grass that exist in North America need frequent hard freezes to go into dormancy - if it remains above freezing (or even above 26F) for a few weeks it will start to green up again, and climates that average temperatures well below 50F in winter can feature year-round green grass. Also, there are a variety of plants, mostly smaller shrubs and vines and the like, that continue to grow as long as the ground is not frozen. I believe someone else mentioned this in a discussion concerning New York.
When the ground isn't frozen plant and animal life continues pretty much unabated, at least in cooler winter climates (i.e. Illinois, not Florida); the only real constant is that trees go dormant, which is the reason why the 10C isotherm is a critical boundary, but it isn't the only one worth noting. The other critical line is the -3C isotherm present in the original Koeppen scheme. This separates the climates that have a persistent snow cover and climates that do not. The -3C line is a bit of a rough fit but it's the best one possible overall. The -3C line also separates places where the ground is frozen and places where the ground isn't frozen, which is another big impact on life in the climate. If a climate averages 0C in the coldest month the ground likely won't be frozen, at least not as much as in a -3C month, which neatly meshes with the snowpack line. It also meshes with the original Koeppen scheme's division between Cfa and Dfa climates .
Interesting. But I follow the original Koeppen scheme, and the Scilly Isles, while they do have very warm winters, fall quite short of meeting the 22C criteria for subtropical summer heat. It has cooler summers than even most of England. So it's simply a very mild form of Cfb climate .
Those sort of mornings in winter would feel warm to me, but I guess it would feel chilly if it's in the 40's with a rain and wind storm. Still, it's no Kerguelen. That's chilly.
However, if one is less cold-hardy than I am, and feels chilly at any temperature below 50F, then the Isles of Scilly would feel very off for a subtropical climate, with this hypothetical person feeling chilled at least in the morning 7 months out of the year.
As for the hardiness zones and so forth, that is an entirely different order of climate classification than what we're talking about here. Also, the hardiness zones and heat zones and so forth do have a general correlation to existing climate types anyway.
For year-round plant growth, temperatures above 50F year round ensure that all plants (well, except tropical ones anyway) continue to grow; however, plant growth still proceeds in winters well below that threshold. For example, the types of grass that exist in North America need frequent hard freezes to go into dormancy - if it remains above freezing (or even above 26F) for a few weeks it will start to green up again, and climates that average temperatures well below 50F in winter can feature year-round green grass. Also, there are a variety of plants, mostly smaller shrubs and vines and the like, that continue to grow as long as the ground is not frozen. I believe someone else mentioned this in a discussion concerning New York.
When the ground isn't frozen plant and animal life continues pretty much unabated, at least in cooler winter climates (i.e. Illinois, not Florida); the only real constant is that trees go dormant, which is the reason why the 10C isotherm is a critical boundary, but it isn't the only one worth noting. The other critical line is the -3C isotherm present in the original Koeppen scheme. This separates the climates that have a persistent snow cover and climates that do not. The -3C line is a bit of a rough fit but it's the best one possible overall. The -3C line also separates places where the ground is frozen and places where the ground isn't frozen, which is another big impact on life in the climate. If a climate averages 0C in the coldest month the ground likely won't be frozen, at least not as much as in a -3C month, which neatly meshes with the snowpack line. It also meshes with the original Koeppen scheme's division between Cfa and Dfa climates .
There are a huge amount of plant species absent in a place like NYC, compared to Scilly or Eureka. NYC doesn't look even remotely subtropical regarding flora.
The ability of plant species to extend their range to a place seems a better guide to similarities of tropical regions, to colder ones.
The -3C mark doesn't make sense, lots of plant species have disappeared well before then.
There are a huge amount of plant species absent in a place like NYC, compared to Scilly or Eureka. NYC doesn't look even remotely subtropical regarding flora.
The ability of plant species to extend their range to a place seems a better guide to similarities of tropical regions, to colder ones.
The -3C mark doesn't make sense, lots of plant species have disappeared well before then.
Would you consider Eureka, CA or Scilly more subtropical than Charleston, SC?
There are a huge amount of plant species absent in a place like NYC, compared to Scilly or Eureka. NYC doesn't look even remotely subtropical regarding flora.
The ability of plant species to extend their range to a place seems a better guide to similarities of tropical regions, to colder ones.
The -3C mark doesn't make sense, lots of plant species have disappeared well before then.
To be fair though, if you're going by native species (rather than what can be planted or is currently being planted), plant diversity is a reflection of pre-history as well as current climate.
For instance, New Zealand's flora is really diverse due to the isolation of it's landmass geographically, and has evolved more unique flora, from different ancestors than many of the plant families in the Northern hemisphere.
Another example is Britain's (and Europe in general) relatively low amount of native tree species compared to temperate North America and East Asia, where trees like oaks, maples etc. are actually more diverse (for instance, Britain only has one native maple, field maple compared to many in say, New England such as red maple, sugar maple, striped maple etc.). Due to glacial history, much more of vegetation in the high-latitudes were wiped out, and recolonized from the south during warm times, many times over. Europe's flora had fewer low-latitude places to retreat to, during glacial advances (being bounded on the south by the Mediterranean sea and the Alps), so many species were lost with the ice.
There are many British trees' lineages whose oldest presence on the island date only to the retreat of the glaciers ten thousand years ago or so.
There are a huge amount of plant species absent in a place like NYC, compared to Scilly or Eureka. NYC doesn't look even remotely subtropical regarding flora.
The ability of plant species to extend their range to a place seems a better guide to similarities of tropical regions, to colder ones.
The -3C mark doesn't make sense, lots of plant species have disappeared well before then.
I agree than NYC is not subtropical. Seems silly to me. However, NYC certainly feels much more subtropical than Scilly from May to October. In the winter NYC doesn't feel subtropical, and to me neither would Scilly with a very low sun and temps in the 40's and cloudy. In fact, I would say that neither Eureka or Scilly would ever feel subtropical to me. They may look it, but they would never feel it. Eureka is just downright chilly all year long. And with avg high in summer of 66F Scilly is laughable. I'd be wearing a jacket there all summer long. Swimming? Fuggedaboutit. So I guess for these definitions to work we have to throw out the idea of pretty much no warmth at all associated with the term "subtropical". If that is the case the term loses significance to me. At least with a place like SF that has cool summers, you get much warmer winters and a very nice Spring and Fall compared to Scilly. Sept and Oct both average above 70F on the high temp in SF.
Would you consider Eureka, CA or Scilly more subtropical than Charleston, SC?
I would consider Charleston a warmer subtropical climate, but the other places represent a more northerly extension of the subtropics
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Originally Posted by Stumbler.
To be fair though, if you're going by native species (rather than what can be planted or is currently being planted), plant diversity is a reflection of pre-history as well as current climate.
For instance, New Zealand's flora is really diverse due to the isolation of it's landmass geographically, and has evolved more unique flora, from different ancestors than many of the plant families in the Northern hemisphere.
Another example is Britain's (and Europe in general) relatively low amount of native tree species compared to temperate North America and East Asia, where trees like oaks, maples etc. are actually more diverse (for instance, Britain only has one native maple, field maple compared to many in say, New England such as red maple, sugar maple, striped maple etc.). Due to glacial history, much more of vegetation in the high-latitudes were wiped out, and recolonized from the south during warm times, many times over. Europe's flora had fewer low-latitude places to retreat to, during glacial advances (being bounded on the south by the Mediterranean sea and the Alps), so many species were lost with the ice.
There are many British trees' lineages whose oldest presence on the island date only to the retreat of the glaciers ten thousand years ago or so.
Pre-history is a valid point, particularly in NZ's case. All NZ flora is descended from tropical genera, so no surprise for the general look.
Exotic species are useful for defining climates as well (probably even more so, now that I think about it ), and it is cold rather than heat that restricts their naturalisation.
Plant limits represent a more natural climate classification system to me. Manmade systems get bogged down in inconsistencies, exceptions, and special cases.
Well then Victoria, BC and some of the Gulf Islands should be Csb
They are as far as I can tell.
The rainfall pattern is clearly Mediterranean, and for the same reason.
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