Quebec enacts legislation to prohibit government employees from wearing religious items at work. (Buddha, pray)
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Going to a Jewish temple for a ceremony is a purely personal choice on your part.
Hanging out with Muslims, which I have done also due to my adopted son, is also a purely personal choice on your part.
How much you participate in christmas festivities, which I also do, is purely a personal choice on your part.
Going to an HOA meeting to which I have to pay mucho money for dues, is part of the democratic process, albeit on a local level. It's not such a personal choice, since that meeting will help determine how I will live based on rules in the community, monthly dues, etc.
Having a school spend public funds for a christmas pageant, where choral and orchestra and drama students are required to attend and participate in (chorus, orchestra, and drama were elective courses with grades, not just extra-curricular activities...but even if they were just extracurricular...) goes beyond your personal choice.
And just to add one more -- having a hissy fit about putting a creche on the lawn of the publicly financed courthouse, when there are a 250 church lawns it could be put on, is not just a personal choice. It crosses the line and puts mixes religion with tax dollars.
OK, I get your point. Perhaps I do not concentrate on those issues as you do. Where I live there is a large Jewish population and I have seen Menorahs in public grounds. I think nothing of it! I am also weary of people that are compelled to pray all the time. It is a turn off, but i do not obsess about it.
Public schools are now teaching transgenderism which I think could very well be a mental illness. And I am OK with that, I am very tolerant of people with totally different perspectives. I don't lose any sleep over such things. Maybe I am more multicultural that I thought I was. However, I am equally turned off by in your face militant Christianity, Judaism, Islam, or Atheism.
You don't seem to get that in the case quoted religion was being entangled with a government function. When the business of an HOA is going to be discussed, there is no reason for a prayer before the meeting.
In the case of where I live, they open school board meetings with a Christian prayer which is not appropriate given that the law says we need to separate church and state. The board gets around this by declaring that the prayers are from individual members not from the whole board. Since this is the case, why not open with a Hindu prayer or a Moslem prayer? There are people from these cultures available, but they would never do that.
They open and close the PTA meetings with Christian prayers as well and many of the parents who are NOT Christian don't think that is a good idea.
My neighbor girls in middle school were told they were going to hell because they prayed Hindu prayers over there lunch (by Christian children not by adults, but still).
My granddaughter was proselytized at the school bus stop when she was 5 going to kindergarten. Her mom is Hindu.
It is different if you are going to a Temple or Mosque or Church -then you respect the traditions of that religion, but in the public square and particularly at government functions there is no place for this.
I get your point. I live in a very multicultural area and see this all the time. The schools in my area are closed on Jewish holidays too. However, perhaps I am more tolerant than the average. As I said, when in Rome I do as the Romans and move on. I would hate to live in a policed state where freedom of expression is curtailed. HOw would you enforce a law that prohibits citizens to pray if they want to? A policed state is something I do not want.
I get your point. I live in a very multicultural area and see this all the time. The schools in my area are closed on Jewish holidays too. However, perhaps I am more tolerant than the average. As I said, when in Rome I do as the Romans and move on. I would hate to live in a policed state where freedom of expression is curtailed. HOw would you enforce a law that prohibits citizens to pray if they want to? A policed state is something I do not want.
You are not prohibiting them from praying by saying don't do it at a public taxpayer funded meeting. They can pray at other times and in other venues, just not at meetings where our taxes are paying for it. Schools where my kids grew up were closed on the Jewish holidays (Rosh Hashana and Yom Kippur). That was a practical matter since the Jewish students were in the majority and would have been excused for their holidays so the school would have lost money due to poor attendance. It's not the same at all. We are also almost always off for Good Friday (the freedom from religion foundation opposes that and has had some court cases on it). I don't object strenuously to this as long as other religions are given time off as well. Since 2015, the New York Public schools have observed Eid al-Fitr and Eid al-Adha. Detroit actually closed schools for the Muslim holidays in 2019/2020 (Eid Al-Fitr was a day off - Of the Muslim Eid holidays, only Eid al-Fitr falls on a school day during the 2019-20 academic year.).
I don't even care if students pray in school as long as teachers are not leading it. I also don't care if the choirs teach religious music as long as their is educational content involved. There needs to be a diversity of music. A Christmas Pageant with a Nativity scene would probably be Unconstitutional. There are plenty of other Christmas plays that can be used that are more secular. Something based on the Gift of the Magi might work or The Snow Queen by Hans Christian Anderson.
Is the religious song or music in question chosen for its educational value or its religious content?
What are the ages of the children studying this music (e.g., is this music class in kindergarten or optional honors chorus in high school?).
Is there an educational value to the song (e.g., are students being introduced to Brahms, Hayden, Verdi, or is this a devotional Sunday school song?).
Is the song in question sung only once or twice in class, or is it drilled daily or studied for public performance? An incidental use of music you find questionable that is in the District's accepted music text is very different than a song used in concert that is practiced frequently.
Does the school district schedule public concerts only for Christmas and Easter. Does it use religious holiday titles?
At public concerts, are the majority of songs religious? While Irving Berlin's song, "White Christmas," is considered secular by the courts, it hardly balances out a concert otherwise containing only Christmas carols (hymns). Many Christmas carols are strongly theological, especially in the second and third verses. Nine Christmas songs and one "Dreidel Song" does not a balanced concert make. There should be diversity, other cultures represented, something non-holy-day/non-Hanukah related! As a student or parent, you can demand better and help educate.
Are there religious symbols used at concerts? Is this performance in a devotional setting? Are student bands, orchestras or choruses being inappropriately recruited by public school employees to "volunteer" for nativity pageants, concerts in religious settings or to sing with church choirs?
Is the music teacher, band leader or choral director making statements that actively promote religion, rather than instruction helping to promote music comprehension and mastery?
You are not prohibiting them from praying by saying don't do it at a public taxpayer funded meeting. They can pray at other times and in other venues, just not at meetings where our taxes are paying for it. Schools where my kids grew up were closed on the Jewish holidays (Rosh Hashana and Yom Kippur). That was a practical matter since the Jewish students were in the majority and would have been excused for their holidays so the school would have lost money due to poor attendance. It's not the same at all. We are also almost always off for Good Friday (the freedom from religion foundation opposes that and has had some court cases on it). I don't object strenuously to this as long as other religions are given time off as well. Since 2015, the New York Public schools have observed Eid al-Fitr and Eid al-Adha. Detroit actually closed schools for the Muslim holidays in 2019/2020 (Eid Al-Fitr was a day off - Of the Muslim Eid holidays, only Eid al-Fitr falls on a school day during the 2019-20 academic year.).
I don't even care if students pray in school as long as teachers are not leading it. I also don't care if the choirs teach religious music as long as their is educational content involved. There needs to be a diversity of music. A Christmas Pageant with a Nativity scene would probably be Unconstitutional. There are plenty of other Christmas plays that can be used that are more secular. Something based on the Gift of the Magi might work or The Snow Queen by Hans Christian Anderson.
Our school system also finally began making a couple of Jewish holidays also school holidays. It had little to do with "giving in", but was mostly because so many kids would be absent that teachers would have to not teach or re-teach, not give any tests, etc.
I've told this story before, but I had a problem with a choral teacher who insisted on kids singing Christmas carols (chorus was a class in our system, not an extra-curricular activity). Each year I handled the complaints until one year when a Muslim mother came in literally wailing and screaming. I went down and got the choral teacher and she sat there for fifteen minutes getting the brunt of the wailing, screaming, crying, etc. It became a non-issue after that.
Our school system also finally began making a couple of Jewish holidays also school holidays. It had little to do with "giving in", but was mostly because so many kids would be absent that teachers would have to not teach or re-teach, not give any tests, etc.
I've told this story before, but I had a problem with a choral teacher who insisted on kids singing Christmas carols (chorus was a class in our system, not an extra-curricular activity). Each year I handled the complaints until one year when a Muslim mother came in literally wailing and screaming. I went down and got the choral teacher and she sat there for fifteen minutes getting the brunt of the wailing, screaming, crying, etc. It became a non-issue after that.
You realize that in England Muslim parents are protesting the teaching of sex Ed and LGBTQIA in schools. Apparently they have been successful. Cultural wars are nasty and I just don’t understand why people are so sensitive or intolerant.
Btw, if public schools gave days off to all groups there would be no school year. As I said, when in Rome do as the Romans and move on. One of the positive things I envision about atheism is tolerance, but who knows, maybe i misjudge the human condition.
You realize that in England Muslim parents are protesting the teaching of sex Ed and LGBTQIA in schools. Apparently they have been successful. Cultural wars are nasty and I just don’t understand why people are so sensitive or intolerant.
Btw, if public schools gave days off to all groups there would be no school year. As I said, when in Rome do as the Romans and move on. One of the positive things I envision about atheism is tolerance, but who knows, maybe i misjudge the human condition.
1. Okay, I get it. You don't believe in democracy.
2. Lots of white American parents protested sex ed classes. But again, you see that as okay, but not when another group does. You like to call anyone who says anything good about Muslims Muslim apologists. You're the opposite -- I just don't know what that's called.
2. Do you even read before you write? Do you even think before you write. I don't hear you complaining about "Christmas vacation" or "Easter vacation". But if it's some other religion's holy day, then it's bad.
3. It's a practical decision, just like when there are certain health epidemics. You can't teach kids who aren't in school. So if a large percentage of students are absent due to a religious holiday (and where I was, that was an issue in a number of schools with a large percentage of the student body being Jewish), you either don't teach, give busy work, or reteach the following day. None of those are good options.
1. Okay, I get it. You don't believe in democracy.
2. Lots of white American parents protested sex ed classes. But again, you see that as okay, but not when another group does. You like to call anyone who says anything good about Muslims Muslim apologists. You're the opposite -- I just don't know what that's called.
2. Do you even read before you write? Do you even think before you write. I don't hear you complaining about "Christmas vacation" or "Easter vacation". But if it's some other religion's holy day, then it's bad.
3. It's a practical decision, just like when there are certain health epidemics. You can't teach kids who aren't in school. So if a large percentage of students are absent due to a religious holiday (and where I was, that was an issue in a number of schools with a large percentage of the student body being Jewish), you either don't teach, give busy work, or reteach the following day. None of those are good options.
I just advocate an open mind. I never promoted the protest of parents of any religious stripe. I keep saying when in Rome do as the Romans. That was a straw man from your part. I am simply advocating an open mind.
If I migrated to a country that is majority Jewish I would do the when in Israel do as Israelites. I just don’t see the preoccupation with this sort of thing. All I see is an enhanced sense of entitlement by some religious groups. I would never demand that the state should grant me religious holidays. The Xmas vacation was there before I was born. I would be perfectly ok with no Xmas holidays. But, I saw it as part of the culture.
This has been discussed frequently on this forum. But, for your benefit here we go one more time (at least from my perspective):
1. I go to an HOA meeting. That has nothing to do with christianity...does it? But no, I have to sit through a 5 minute christian prayer. It doesn't matter than I am Buddhist/atheist. It doesn't matter that others in the community are Jewish. Because they are the majority, the christians think it's all right to subject everyone to their ceremonies.
2. It doesn't matter that the school where I was teaching at the time had a substantial minority population from Southeast Asia (most of whom were not christian), at a faculty meeting a teacher DEMANDS that we have a christmas pagent about the birth of christ because (and this is a direct quote) "We're in the majority. We can do any damned thing we want".
3. In 7 states, legally atheists cannot run for public office.
These are just three examples of exactly why atheists need to speak out and make it clear that we are not going to passively sit by while OUR rights are trampled on.
Excellent.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nana053
You don't seem to get that in the case quoted religion was being entangled with a government function. When the business of an HOA is going to be discussed, there is no reason for a prayer before the meeting.
Oh, yes, there is from their view. It's done out of spite and to coerce. And it's a form of flaunting, taunting and bullying.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nana053
In the case of where I live, they open school board meetings with a Christian prayer which is not appropriate given that the law says we need to separate church and state. The board gets around this by declaring that the prayers are from individual members not from the whole board.
They open and close the PTA meetings with Christian prayers as well and many of the parents who are NOT Christian don't think that is a good idea.
In all cases what you ought to do is print up flyers of Matthew 6:5-7, highlight the relevant parts and distribute them.
Then, when they pray, start chanting, "Hypocrite!"
Because, that's what they are. The Yahweh-Jesus-Thing says people who pray in public are hypocrites, and unless they are specifically reciting the Lord's Prayer, they're praying wrong.
I mention that, because we engage in legal exercises sometimes, you know, "What if?"
In civil litigation on the matter, the goal would be to get christians to admit that the gospels are god's law, then you can turn around and through god's law right in their face.
If they are not in compliance with god's law, then the conclusion that can be drawn is that they are intentionally taunting, bullying and coercing.
And, in today's world, at least in the US, taunting, bullying and coercing are no longer permitted.
There's no conflict here, either. They have a 1st Amendment right to freedom of religion, but that freedom ends when it becomes taunting, bullying and coercion.
So, worst case scenario is everyone is saying the Lord's Prayer at public functions, and that might seem like a Pyrrhic Victory, but not really, because they will have to live with the fact that it was we who forced them to abide by the laws of their own god.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian658
And I do not understand why so many atheists are offended by the term NEW, MILITANT, FUNDAMENTALIST ATHEISM.
Because it's unwarranted. It's an underhanded attack on Atheists by labeling them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian658
Another terrible component of tribalism...
There's nothing wrong with tribalism and its a grotesque misuse of the word. "Obscurantism" applies here.
The overwhelming majority of tribes co-existed peacefully for 10s of 1,000s of years.
Even in the Americas that was true.
And, contrary to your false beliefs, conflicts did not arise based on who's right or wrong. Conflicts were economic-based, generally about resources or access to resources.
I just advocate an open mind. I never promoted the protest of parents of any religious stripe. I keep saying when in Rome do as the Romans. That was a straw man from your part. I am simply advocating an open mind.
If I migrated to a country that is majority Jewish I would do the when in Israel do as Israelites. I just don’t see the preoccupation with this sort of thing. All I see is an enhanced sense of entitlement by some religious groups. I would never demand that the state should grant me religious holidays. The Xmas vacation was there before I was born. I would be perfectly ok with no Xmas holidays. But, I saw it as part of the culture.
Sometimes things just go over your head.
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