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No, the subject was you being an atheist, not a new atheist. And I do not understand why you are afraid of this term.
Because these terms are used to dismiss vocal atheism, which is all new atheism is. It is an attempt to shut down any criticism of religion, usually by the religious.
Then stop doing it.
Your ex-Christian background is showing.
Vocal atheism, that is another term. Why be vocal about it? I have kept my agnostic views to myself all my life. I do not tell or preach others unless I am with close friends.
It is fine to discuss the atheism in a forum, but I am enthralled with the intolerance of a slightly different take on atheism. Why is this so offensive to you? Why not hear a different perspective on the same theme?
He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that.
John Stuart Mill
OK, I am an agnostic atheist. I have been since I was a young teen. A self discovery with no real consequences, a totally logical position. But, I do not make a big deal out of this discovery, maybe that is the difference. And I do not see myself as antireligion, however, I recognize that fundamentalists of any religion or movement are dangerous.
What does antireligion have to do with anything I said? I will repeat that there is nothing for atheists to be fundamental about. No dogma. No tenets. No rituals. No books. Nothing.
What does antireligion have to do with anything I said? I will repeat that there is nothing for atheists to be fundamental about. No dogma. No tenets. No rituals. No books. Nothing.
You misunderstood. I said I worry about religious fundamentalists. Atheist fundamentalists should not exist.
What does antireligion have to do with anything I said? I will repeat that there is nothing for atheists to be fundamental about. No dogma. No tenets. No rituals. No books. Nothing.
I agree.
I think the posts we see about this really have nothing to do about "fundamentalism" in atheism. But rather about how active some people are in terms of atheism. And even that is very difficult to judge. For example, I'm not sure how I'm perceived in this regard on this forum...probably as aggressive. In "real" life, I've only talked about atheism with a handful of people, including just a week ago when a neighbor -- out of the blue -- said he was "pretty much an atheist now"...and it was a topic that I have never brought up to him.
Vocal atheism, that is another term. Why be vocal about it? I have kept my agnostic views to myself all my life. I do not tell or preach others unless I am with close friends.
It is fine to discuss the atheism in a forum, but I am enthralled with the intolerance of a slightly different take on atheism. Why is this so offensive to you? Why not hear a different perspective on the same theme?
He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that.
John Stuart Mill
This has been discussed frequently on this forum. But, for your benefit here we go one more time (at least from my perspective):
1. I go to an HOA meeting. That has nothing to do with christianity...does it? But no, I have to sit through a 5 minute christian prayer. It doesn't matter than I am Buddhist/atheist. It doesn't matter that others in the community are Jewish. Because they are the majority, the christians think it's all right to subject everyone to their ceremonies.
2. It doesn't matter that the school where I was teaching at the time had a substantial minority population from Southeast Asia (most of whom were not christian), at a faculty meeting a teacher DEMANDS that we have a christmas pagent about the birth of christ because (and this is a direct quote) "We're in the majority. We can do any damned thing we want".
3. In 7 states, legally atheists cannot run for public office.
These are just three examples of exactly why atheists need to speak out and make it clear that we are not going to passively sit by while OUR rights are trampled on.
I think the posts we see about this really have nothing to do about "fundamentalism" in atheism. But rather about how active some people are in terms of atheism. And even that is very difficult to judge. For example, I'm not sure how I'm perceived in this regard on this forum...probably as aggressive. In "real" life, I've only talked about atheism with a handful of people, including just a week ago when a neighbor -- out of the blue -- said he was "pretty much an atheist now"...and it was a topic that I have never brought up to him.
I would say that most people with rudimentary education have pondered atheism. They just don't talk about it or they ignore the thoughts. The churches are full of atheists in denial.
This has been discussed frequently on this forum. But, for your benefit here we go one more time (at least from my perspective):
1. I go to an HOA meeting. That has nothing to do with christianity...does it? But no, I have to sit through a 5 minute christian prayer. It doesn't matter than I am Buddhist/atheist. It doesn't matter that others in the community are Jewish. Because they are the majority, the christians think it's all right to subject everyone to their ceremonies.
2. It doesn't matter that the school where I was teaching at the time had a substantial minority population from Southeast Asia (most of whom were not christian), at a faculty meeting a teacher DEMANDS that we have a christmas pagent about the birth of christ because (and this is a direct quote) "We're in the majority. We can do any damned thing we want".
3. In 7 states, legally atheists cannot run for public office.
These are just three examples of exactly why atheists need to speak out and make it clear that we are not going to passively sit by while OUR rights are trampled on.
I am not like you. When in Rome as do as the Romans. IF I go to a Jewish temple for a Bat mitzvaha I gladly wear the kippah. I hang out with Muslims I admire their traditions. I am not an ethnocentrist even if I am a cultural Catholic. Xmas is just part of Western culture and I am enthralled about your negativity to a ritual that is not even rooted in Christianity.
And I suspect that if people like you were in the majority or in a position of power you would give religious people a very hard time.
OK, I am an agnostic atheist. I have been since I was a young teen. A self discovery with no real consequences, a totally logical position. But, I do not make a big deal out of this discovery, maybe that is the difference. And I do not see myself as antireligion, however, I recognize that fundamentalists of any religion or movement are dangerous.
All atheists are agnostic atheists just as all theists are agnostic theists. (Though they may claim to to 'Know'.
'New' atheism isn't a different kind of atheism but the old one that speaks out and is unapologetically evangelical, frankly.
Militant' doesn't offend me. i consider myself 'Militant' mbyt 'Fundamentalist' is either meaningless because there is no atheist dogma to be fundamentaist about. of course the term may be used as an pejorative epithet implying that we are intolerant and even violent. That is simply smear.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian658
Vocal atheism, that is another term. Why be vocal about it? I have kept my agnostic views to myself all my life. I do not tell or preach others unless I am with close friends.
It is fine to discuss the atheism in a forum, but I am enthralled with the intolerance of a slightly different take on atheism. Why is this so offensive to you? Why not hear a different perspective on the same theme?
He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that.
John Stuart Mill
''Good grief. have you read and understood nothing of why we say we are outspoken, militant and are trying to push a campaign forward? if there's anyone who knows only his own side of the case, (and persistently mistaken, at that) it's you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian658
You misunderstood. I said I worry about religious fundamentalists. Atheist fundamentalists should not exist.
They don't; there is no such thing. There are atheist activists, even militant atheists (given careful definition of what that means) but atheist fundamentalism (apart from a smeary equating with terrorism) is a misnomer.
You seem to make a lot of progress, and then, damn' pop up making the same errors again. Are you actually Vic as one poster thought?
I am not like you. When in Rome as do as the Romans. IF I go to a Jewish temple for a Bat mitzvaha I gladly wear the kippah. I hang out with Muslims I admire their traditions. I am not an ethnocentrist even if I am a cultural Catholic. Xmas is just part of Western culture and I am enthralled about your negativity to a ritual that is not even rooted in Christianity.
And I suspect that if people like you were in the majority or in a position of power you would give religious people a very hard time.
You don't seem to get that in the case quoted religion was being entangled with a government function. When the business of an HOA is going to be discussed, there is no reason for a prayer before the meeting.
In the case of where I live, they open school board meetings with a Christian prayer which is not appropriate given that the law says we need to separate church and state. The board gets around this by declaring that the prayers are from individual members not from the whole board. Since this is the case, why not open with a Hindu prayer or a Moslem prayer? There are people from these cultures available, but they would never do that.
They open and close the PTA meetings with Christian prayers as well and many of the parents who are NOT Christian don't think that is a good idea.
My neighbor girls in middle school were told they were going to hell because they prayed Hindu prayers over there lunch (by Christian children not by adults, but still).
My granddaughter was proselytized at the school bus stop when she was 5 going to kindergarten. Her mom is Hindu.
It is different if you are going to a Temple or Mosque or Church -then you respect the traditions of that religion, but in the public square and particularly at government functions there is no place for this.
I am not like you. When in Rome as do as the Romans. IF I go to a Jewish temple for a Bat mitzvaha I gladly wear the kippah. I hang out with Muslims I admire their traditions. I am not an ethnocentrist even if I am a cultural Catholic. Xmas is just part of Western culture and I am enthralled about your negativity to a ritual that is not even rooted in Christianity.
And I suspect that if people like you were in the majority or in a position of power you would give religious people a very hard time.
I'm surprised you don't see the difference.
Going to a Jewish temple for a ceremony is a purely personal choice on your part.
Hanging out with Muslims, which I have done also due to my adopted son, is also a purely personal choice on your part.
How much you participate in christmas festivities, which I also do, is purely a personal choice on your part.
Going to an HOA meeting to which I have to pay mucho money for dues, is part of the democratic process, albeit on a local level. It's not such a personal choice, since that meeting will help determine how I will live based on rules in the community, monthly dues, etc.
Having a school spend public funds for a christmas pageant, where choral and orchestra and drama students are required to attend and participate in (chorus, orchestra, and drama were elective courses with grades, not just extra-curricular activities...but even if they were just extracurricular...) goes beyond your personal choice.
And just to add one more -- having a hissy fit about putting a creche on the lawn of the publicly financed courthouse, when there are a 250 church lawns it could be put on, is not just a personal choice. It crosses the line and puts mixes religion with tax dollars.
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