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I've always speculated how much of our conscious thought is related to language. A fish doesn't have language. That doesn't mean it's not thinking.
A lot of species don't have language as we know it but most can certainly communicate, and not just simplistic sign language.
Consider honey bees returning to the hive and by their "dance" and other cues, they can tell their sisters exactly how to find a certain group of flowers that may be a half-mile or more away. Fish communicate by gaping, extending their fins, changing the colour of their skin and laughing at luckless fishermen.
A good question to ask is, at what point does an organism become conscious?;
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Chimps certainly are conscious. As we know, they can be trained in a rudimentary language, as can dogs and dolphins.
I'm absolutely certain that these and other animals such as cats are conscious.
So then how far back down the chain do you go before you decide an organism is only reacting to stimuli?
As Arach continually tries to point out, it is ALL interchange of information and reactions to it. So how complex does the interchange have to become for us to consider it conscious because there can be no reaction or interchange if there is no awareness of the presence of the stimuli? I prefer Cruithne's view of the pufferfish and spider, etc. But I am prejudiced. I consider the entire substrate a consciousness field itself so obviously, all manifestations of it are of consciousness at their base. We can only detect evidence of it among the living or organic manifestations.
A good question to ask is, at what point does an organism become conscious?;
.
Chimps certainly are conscious. As we know, they can be trained in a rudimentary language, as can dogs and dolphins.
I'm absolutely certain that these and other animals such as cats are conscious.
So then how far back down the chain do you go before you decide an organism is only reacting to stimuli?
That's a good question. But there may not be a hard and fast answer to 'where is the cut -off point?' It's like the 'Fallacy of the beard'. You know what's a beard and what's just a few whiskers, but where the cut off point is, is hard to say and is maybe a question that doesn't need to be asked. Because the point about evolution, is species, society or even technology is two things that are different when you look at them but they are the same basic material, so to speak.
I might guess at the point where individual species develop a group or pack, and the individuals become aware of a place in the pack, the identity of others and thus their own identity. But that's just my idea about it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TroutDude
A lot of species don't have language as we know it but most can certainly communicate, and not just simplistic sign language.
Consider honey bees returning to the hive and by their "dance" and other cues, they can tell their sisters exactly how to find a certain group of flowers that may be a half-mile or more away. Fish communicate by gaping, extending their fins, changing the colour of their skin and laughing at luckless fishermen.
Communication there is reaction. A critter may react in the same way to signs from a bush that there is danger, a fruit that it is ready to eat, or an individual of the same species that it is willing to mate, or is ready to knock your block off.
That one is a signal from the same species and the others are signals from other species does not make one any the less communication than the other. So signals, visual or verbal, are not so much the identifiers of consciousness or awareness but ..and I have to say it again..where the creature begins to be aware of its own identity.
Layers of complexity in information exchange. In this hierarchy of structure we are not the top structure. Deity/Lack of belief based on ignorance is no excuse when fighting so hard that one will lay waste to all commonsense and reason, aka:fubar.
I don't agree.
There's no reason to draw a difference between instinctive and conscious. One does not rule out the other. They work together.
Every time you stand up, sit down, walk across a room, get out of bed, you have made a decision to do that. You may not always be spelling out as a complete sentence "I think I will go over there" but you have made that decision in your head nonetheless.
I am not arguing they rule out the other, complex animals have both, I am saying they are different. Consciousness means the animal is aware that it is doing something, that it is deciding to do something. The problem is confusing instinctive behavior for a conscious process.
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Originally Posted by Cruithne
I cannot imagine the puffer fish is merrily carving out a structure with absolutely no decision making process whatsoever. It's not like it's just swimming down stream. It's having to make a particular set of moves in order. You can see towards the end of the video it tidying up and straightening some of the lines. That's not a thoughtless process.
Even if it is, it still doesn't change that it knows what it is doing.
Maybe not in the same way you or I would.
But can the puffer fish build a different pattern? It has some awareness of the pattern, but is it aware how to build a different pattern? Like a snow flake always has six arms because of the laws of nature, the fish may only be able to build one pattern because that is how it's brain is wired.
But I have seen Buzzards actually planning how to hunt crows and pigeons, but they have a more advanced brain than a fish.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cruithne
I've always speculated how much of our conscious thought is related to language.
A fish doesn't have language. That doesn't mean it's not thinking.
That is a good question, but I have not investigated this so I do not know.
I have often wondered just how much thinking a dog, elephant, horse, dolphin or chimp can do. But with a puffer -fish, spider or Bower bird, I am inclined to suppose it is all instinct and it doesn't think at all.
I would argue birds are also conscious to some degree. Crows and Buzzards certainly make plans.
I would argue birds are also conscious to some degree. Crows and Buzzards certainly make plans.
I would argue conscious to a to a very high degree! The cheeky little critters can think! There's no doubt a dog can think and plan and get mischievous ideas. But birds? Yup. I've raised some birds and came to realize just how smart they can be. There's a video showing crows playing in the snow. There's another video of a man with his pet parrot or parakeet or something - he makes a gun from his fingers, points it at the bird and says "bang" and the bird pretends to be shot, fall over and die. They're not stupid! Not all birds are smart though.
But the point is, it makes one wonder just what goes on in another animals mind and just how aware or 'conscious' they actually are. I have this rock pigeon sitting above my head as I type. I wonder what goes on in his head. What he might be thinking or whether he actually thinks at all. Some mornings he gets cuddly and nibbles my hand, jumps on my shoulder and nibbles my face then other mornings he just jumps on my shoulder and wants go out. And I can read his body language. Is that behavior all just instinctive? It doesn't look like it.
I would argue birds are also conscious to some degree. Crows and Buzzards certainly make plans.
A good point. There is an element of choice in there. Some species at the lower end do what they do with no more volition than a crystal growing. Purely driven by innate instinct. The options of planning would certainly look like awareness.
All these 'Happy Easter' messages being sent around! Do people not get what Easter was supposed to be about?
The most horrendous death imaginable! And it's called Good Friday!
I for one am rather glad that the miserable dolor of the religious Easter story is sidelined for the easter bunny and something more cheerful. At least Christmas has a bit of magic about it.
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