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I'm in southern California and 40 degrees is freezing to me, I want a good heater.
That's when I'm starting to consider changing from shorts into pants.
But to answer your question, most EV's have the ability to pre-condition the interior while charging. If it's chilly in the AM and the car is connected, it'll turn on the heat and seat/steering wheel heaters using wall power instead of the battery.
Just like this NHTSA's original Corporate Average Fuel Economy (CAFE) standards this will get pushed back when it becomes apparent is not feasible. As a Californian if Sacramento insists on this ridiculous mandate 13 1/2 years from now I'll move to another state that's a little more realistic. I'm not going to sit around waiting 30 minutes or more for a charge while on a road trip when an I.C.E. vehicle lets me fuel up in a couple minutes. EVs have come a long way in a short period of time but batteries have not. Its still inconvenient to charge anywhere but home overnight. Plus the power grid here can't even handle a really hot day as it is. 22 years after the ENRON fiasco and our rolling brownouts we're still in a precarious position. I seriously doubt they'll come up with a solution that fast. California doesn't work that way.
I'm in southern California and 40 degrees is freezing to me, I want a good heater.
Yea, modern EVs can and often do have good heaters. That's not a problem. You even get a bonus in that you can have your vehicle set to warm up the cabin while it's in the garage and even while plugged in to draw from mains power without carbon monoxide poisoning yourself.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeauCharles
Just like this NHTSA's original Corporate Average Fuel Economy (CAFE) standards this will get pushed back when it becomes apparent is not feasible. As a Californian if Sacramento insists on this ridiculous mandate 13 1/2 years from now I'll move to another state that's a little more realistic. I'm not going to sit around waiting 30 minutes or more for a charge while on a road trip when an I.C.E. vehicle lets me fuel up in a couple minutes. EVs have come a long way in a short period of time but batteries have not. Its still inconvenient to charge anywhere but home overnight. Plus the power grid here can't even handle a really hot day as it is. 22 years after the ENRON fiasco and our rolling brownouts we're still in a precarious position. I seriously doubt they'll come up with a solution that fast. California doesn't work that way.
You might not be understanding what is or is not feasible. 13 1/3 years is a very long time for EV development given how quickly they've improved in the last decade and what you're talking about with charging on a road trip makes fairly little difference in most cases even with the longer range EVs right now.
Probably by 2028 or so, battery tech will be so advanced that EV cars will be approximately as good as gasoline cars when it comes to range, and maybe just a bit slower to recharge. 10 minutes versus 3 minutes? I don't know, maybe I'm optimistic.
There are amazing battery technologies in the research labs; every few months, someone announces another advance. Lighter, safer, better.
Be that as it may... when EVs can go 1,000 miles on a charge, that'll be the end of new gasoline vehicles. EV is just so much quieter, better acceleration, lower maintenance. A lot of car mechanics are going to be looking for a new career, I suspect.
Yea, modern EVs can and often do have good heaters. That's not a problem. You even get a bonus in that you can have your vehicle set to warm up the cabin while it's in the garage and even while plugged in to draw from mains power without carbon monoxide poisoning yourself.
You might not be understanding what is or is not feasible. 13 1/3 years is a very long time for EV development given how quickly they've improved in the last decade and what you're talking about with charging on a road trip makes fairly little difference in most cases even with the longer range EVs right now.
He was talking about Californias insistent on green energy which is barely adaquet now and no way will be able to charge a lot of electric cars in 13 years.
He was talking about Californias insistent on green energy which is barely adaquet now and no way will be able to charge a lot of electric cars in 13 years.
EVs have fairly little bearing on that and it's unlikely that they'll be unable to charge a lot of electric cars in 13 years since it's 1) a fairly small amount of capacity change that's estimated over that period of time since the median age of vehicles is over a decade and the policy is on new vehicle purchases, 2) the estimates might be off as EVs have become more and more efficient.
California's larger issue for the grid isn't really that of generation capacity--it's fire risk. Should've probably ponied up for burying lines running in more of the higher risk areas, but CA electrical generation is mostly through shareholder-owned utilities which would be loathe to do the extra spending unless obligated to under the law. On net balance, not burying is terrible for CA as the economic losses overall are far, far greater than the cost of burying the highest risk transmission lines, but the thing is, not all those losses are born by the shareholders of those utilities and therefore they aren't all that incentivized to take on those costs. If you're really that worried and you've got some money, then get solar panels, stationary storage and an EV.
You might not be understanding what is or is not feasible. 13 1/3 years is a very long time for EV development given how quickly they've improved in the last decade and what you're talking about with charging on a road trip makes fairly little difference in most cases even with the longer range EVs right now.
Infrastructure in rural areas often does not change, even in 13 years.
Roughly 70% of the plug-ins in California are in six counties. In all of these counties BEVs outnumber PHEVs.
BEV County PHEV
84,760 Los Angeles 69,474
44,441 Orange 32,265
49,385 Santa Clara 23,707
32,057 San Diego 19,559
29,191 Alameda 16,594
15,819 Contra Costa 10,119
But in 24 out of 58 counties in California it is the opposite, PHEVs outnumber BEVs. As you get more rural or desert, people are obviously more range anxious.
I know that the answer is more and more infrastructure but look at history. It took 50 years longer until rural areas electrified to be somewhat on the same level as urban areas. We still haven't got a handle on how to provide fast internet at a reliable price to rural areas.
The two least populated counties in California barely have any plug ins
Sierra 7 plug-ins
Alpine 11 plug-ins
Infrastructure in rural areas often does not change, even in 13 years.
Roughly 70% of the plug-ins in California are in six counties. In all of these counties BEVs outnumber PHEVs.
BEV County PHEV
84,760 Los Angeles 69,474
44,441 Orange 32,265
49,385 Santa Clara 23,707
32,057 San Diego 19,559
29,191 Alameda 16,594
15,819 Contra Costa 10,119
But in 24 out of 58 counties in California it is the opposite, PHEVs outnumber BEVs. As you get more rural or desert, people are obviously more range anxious.
I know that the answer is more and more infrastructure but look at history. It took 50 years longer until rural areas electrified to be somewhat on the same level as urban areas. We still haven't got a handle on how to provide fast internet at a reliable price to rural areas.
The two least populated counties in California barely have any plug ins
Sierra 7 plug-ins
Alpine 11 plug-ins
Even rural counties get electricity in California (and Massachusetts which was the topic of this thread), and rural homes are likely to have dedicated parking.
If you're thinking about gas station equivalents, there are charging stations with no external connections (just solar panels, battery storage, and the chargers), but even more likely is for there to be those with at least some connection as the electrical infrastructure is already there in every county in CA. The deployment is in some senses easier and cheaper than gas stations, but again, for a lot of people in rural areas, most charging would likely be home charging though there'll certainly be other chargers as CA among all the states seems to have expanded the number of chargers more aggressively.
There is going to be some skewing towards wealthier counties due to newer vehicles and to larger budgets for vehicles as plug-ins still skew towards a higher purchase price right now and you'll find that even with less urbanized North Bay of the SF Bay Area where you'll likely see a pretty high per capita ownership of plug-ins versus more urbanized, but much less wealthy Inland Empire counties of Riverside and San Bernadino which also favor plugin hybrids. I think you'll also find that the number of plugins probably also corresponds pretty strongly to the population of the counties as both Sierra and Alpine county have very small populations in the thousands for the former, and not even that for the latter.
You're going to need the purchase price parity to come in to play for at least a few years to see significant inroads though that's better than 13 1/2 years.
Last edited by OyCrumbler; 06-19-2021 at 10:56 PM..
Even rural counties get electricity in California (and Massachusetts which was the topic of this thread), and rural homes are likely to have dedicated parking.
Clearly I know that electricity is everywhere today. I was saying historically it takes a lot longer for rural areas to catch up to urban ones.
The Pearl Street Station in Manhattan, the first central power plant in the U.S., began producing electricity on September 4th, 1882. It initially served 85 customers, providing electricity to 400 lamps.The rural Electrification Act of 1936, enacted on May 20, 1936, provided federal loans for the installation of electrical distribution systems to serve isolated rural areas of the United States.
I live in a metro area of 842K people with a GDP of over $43 billion and we have a single Tesla supercharging station.
I think that you are correct that 13 years will make a huge difference in the vehicles, but the infrastructure of sparsely populated areas will take a lot longer to build out.
Clearly I know that electricity is everywhere today. I was saying historically it takes a lot longer for rural areas to catch up to urban ones.
The Pearl Street Station in Manhattan, the first central power plant in the U.S., began producing electricity on September 4th, 1882. It initially served 85 customers, providing electricity to 400 lamps.The rural Electrification Act of 1936, enacted on May 20, 1936, provided federal loans for the installation of electrical distribution systems to serve isolated rural areas of the United States.
I live in a metro area of 842K people with a GDP of over $43 billion and we have a single Tesla supercharging station.
I think that you are correct that 13 years will make a huge difference in the vehicles, but the infrastructure of sparsely populated areas will take a lot longer to build out.
EVs actually run on electricity though as EV is short for electric vehicle. It's not a whole new infrastructure like hydrogen gas for fuel cells would be. That's why it's relevant to say that even rural counties in California have electricity today. The electric vehicles actually charge using electricity. I'm not making this up--places of work and people's home are generally on the grid in California. That part's the heavy lift for EV charging as the last part of putting in the chargers and potentially batteries (Electrify America seems particularly keen to put batteries in with charger installations) to help smooth out draw from the grid is a pretty minor step in comparison which is how charging stations proliferate quickly when there's demand for them.
Don't you live in an urban-ish place that has very little dedicated carports / garages so home charging would pose a challenge for more people? That's different from rural areas of CA. Don't you also live in a state that has far fewer fast charging stations even on a per capita basis than CA? Also, I believe the fastest charging station in Allentown isn't the Tesla supercharger, but the Electrify America fast charging station. However, you also have level 2 public chargers despite the rather limited adoption in your area thus far.
The infrastructure part is probably the easier part to solve as deployment of charging stations can be and has been quite fast, but it goes at just about the pace of adoption. More demand for public chargers does seem to spur the building of more public chargers and they're pretty easy to set up and site in comparison to gas stations.
I do think PA will continue to have a lower EV adoption rate than both CA and MA for the near future / next few decades.
Last edited by OyCrumbler; 06-20-2021 at 12:23 AM..
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