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They have the China-only Lexus BEV, the RAV4 Prime PHEV that'll be getting a Lexus variant soon, the old Prius Prime, and the upcoming shared BEV with Subaru. That's a pretty limited lineup.
Toyota also has an electric vehicle (BEV) variant of the C-HR which went on sale in China in April 2020. The electric motor produces 201 hp and 220 lbâ‹…ft of torque. The 54.3 kWh lithium-ion battery pack is claimed to deliver a range of up to 248 miles. Toyota simply has to import it into the US. I presume the reason they haven't done so is the C-HR has limited popularity in the US (as do all subcompact SUVs), and it is feared that a BEV will sell even worse.
Compact SUVs outsell Subcompact SUVs by 3.5 to 1 in California, and I am sure there is a similar ratio in Massachussets
2020 registrations in CA of Subcompact SUVs
11,708 Honda HR-V 15.0%
9,578 Toyota C-HR 12.2%
8,239 Hyundai Kona 10.5%
6,946 Nissan Kicks 8.9%
5,896 Kia Niro 7.5%
42,367 subcompacts 54.1%
2020 registrations in CA of Compact SUVs
57,449 Toyota RAV4 23.6%
33,948 Honda CR-V 14.0%
19,415 Jeep Wrangler 0.0%
19,207 Mazda CX5 7.9%
17,830 Subaru Forester 7.3%
147,849 compact 52.8%
However, by 2035 Toyota may have the most extensive lineup of BEVs of anyone in the US, especially if they wholly absorb Subaru. But it is unclear if Toyota could repeat their 341,068 vehicle sales (from 2019) selling purely BEVs. If however, the ban is relaxed to permit hybrids for an additional 5 years, then Toyota will probably have a crushing advantage over other makes.
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The Toyota Avalon is the vehicle in Toyota's lineup that is as close as it comes to a run-off between ICE and FHEV.
The ICE Avalon has a MSRP of $37,100, and the hybrid is only an additional $975. Less than a $1000 is easily paid off in a short amount of time in fuel savings. In the first quarter of 2021 Toyota sold 2,088 Avalon hybrids and 3,048 ICE Avalons. That seems to me to demonstrate that there is still personal bias against hybrids.
But the Avalon is an old people vehicle, so it is not particularly shocking. I would love to see a runoff between an ICE and BEV version of the same vehicle with a younger person's appeal within 5 years.
Last edited by PacoMartin; 06-12-2021 at 02:37 PM..
Toyota also has an electric vehicle (BEV) variant of the C-HR which went on sale in China in April 2020. The electric motor produces 201 hp and 220 lbâ‹…ft of torque. The 54.3 kWh lithium-ion battery pack is claimed to deliver a range of up to 248 miles. Toyota simply has to import it into the US. I presume the reason they haven't done so is the C-HR has limited popularity in the US (as do all subcompact SUVs), and it is feared that a BEV will sell even worse.
Compact SUVs outsell Subcompact SUVs by 3.5 to 1 in California, and I am sure there is a similar ratio in Massachussets
2020 registrations in CA of Subcompact SUVs
11,708 Honda HR-V 15.0%
9,578 Toyota C-HR 12.2%
8,239 Hyundai Kona 10.5%
6,946 Nissan Kicks 8.9%
5,896 Kia Niro 7.5%
42,367 subcompacts 54.1%
2020 registrations in CA of Compact SUVs
57,449 Toyota RAV4 23.6%
33,948 Honda CR-V 14.0%
19,415 Jeep Wrangler 0.0%
19,207 Mazda CX5 7.9%
17,830 Subaru Forester 7.3%
147,849 compact 52.8%
However, by 2035 Toyota may have the most extensive lineup of BEVs of anyone in the US, especially if they wholly absorb Subaru. But it is unclear if Toyota could repeat their 341,068 vehicle sales (from 2019) selling purely BEVs. If however, the ban is relaxed to permit hybrids for an additional 5 years, then Toyota will probably have a crushing advantage over other makes.
=====================
The Toyota Avalon is the vehicle in Toyota's lineup that is as close as it comes to a run-off between ICE and FHEV.
The ICE Avalon has a MSRP of $37,100, and the hybrid is only an additional $975. Less than a $1000 is easily paid off in a short amount of time in fuel savings. In the first quarter of 2021 Toyota sold 2,088 Avalon hybrids and 3,048 ICE Avalons. That seems to me to demonstrate that there is still personal bias against hybrids.
But the Avalon is an old people vehicle, so it is not particularly shocking. I would love to see a runoff between an ICE and BEV version of the same vehicle with a younger person's appeal within 5 years.
2035 is anyone's game. 2025, probably VW since VW / Audi share platforms and Audi / Porsche share platforms and VW has (somewhat because they forced their own hands) invested more heavily into BEVs than any other major automaker in recent years which means they'll be able to put out a lot of different BEVs in the near future. They've got the ID.4, e-tron, and Taycan now, and are about to have the e-tron GT and e-tron Q4 a bit later with more to come.
I think Toyota needs to essentially design a vehicle / platform meant to be a BEV and with any sort of hybrid to be incidental to that. It loses out on advantages that building specifically with a BEV platform in mind for optimization.
I am still reminded of the war of the fuels approx 60 years regarding home heating. Electricity has some huge advantages over other fuels. It is clean, it is a lot less dangerous, you can zone your home, it is much easier tointegrate with air conditioning, etc. But today only 37% of US homes are heated with electricity compared to 48% that use natural gas.
Some of it is simply inertia. There are roughly 2 billion internal combusion engine vehicles in the world.
Natural gas is way cheaper than electric in my area, we’re the temperature can get to -45 windchill outside. My natural gas last year ran me around $65 a month during the winter, that’s natural gas furnace, natural gas stove. We have a electric hot water heater, and electric dryer and our bill ran over $150 in the winter months. Electric heat pumps or electric heat may be good for mild winter states but not the northern states with below 0 temperatures. Natural gas is the only way to go oil heat is to expensive because of maintenance and it smells. Natural gas is almost maintenance free and you never have to remember to refill like you have to with oil or propane heat.
I am still reminded of the war of the fuels approx 60 years regarding home heating. Electricity has some huge advantages over other fuels. It is clean, it is a lot less dangerous, you can zone your home, it is much easier tointegrate with air conditioning, etc. But today only 37% of US homes are heated with electricity compared to 48% that use natural gas.
Some of it is simply inertia. There are roughly 2 billion internal combusion engine vehicles in the world.
Right, and that's actually getting replayed again over the last decade in the US with modern heat pumps. Japan didn't exactly have a glut of natural gas resources and so natural gas heating especially by utility connection is pretty rare, so some Japanese manufacturers honed in on making heat pumps much more efficient and usefully operable at very low temperatures so they had something like 90% domestic market share. They apparently did a really good job and now much of East Asia and more and more other places like the US are turning to heat pumps. Hell, they're even making their way into EVs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by easy62
Natural gas is way cheaper than electric in my area, we’re the temperature can get to -45 windchill outside. My natural gas last year ran me around $65 a month during the winter, that’s natural gas furnace, natural gas stove. We have a electric hot water heater, and electric dryer and our bill ran over $150 in the winter months. Electric heat pumps or electric heat may be good for mild winter states but not the northern states with below 0 temperatures. Natural gas is the only way to go oil heat is to expensive because of maintenance and it smells. Natural gas is almost maintenance free and you never have to remember to refill like you have to with oil or propane heat.
Heat pumps these days are better than those of previous decades and can actually operate efficiently at pretty low temperatures. It started with a lot of Japanese brands with Mitsubishi being maybe the most prevalent (the one I linked to still has high efficiency at -13F ambient air temperature--wind chill's pretty meaningless to how a heat pump operates unless it blows down a tree and wrecks your home though that would be a problem with a natural gas furnace, too), but there are others in the market now too.
Last edited by OyCrumbler; 06-14-2021 at 10:46 AM..
Natural gas is the only way to go oil heat is to expensive because of maintenance and it smells.
The last three seasons this is the gallons of heating oil and the cost
1,700 $3,325 2020-21
1,400 $3,477 2019-20
2,089 $5,418 2018-19
1,727 $4,211 2017-18
In addition it is $500 in preventive maintenance per year.
We would love to have natural gas, but the gas company won't extend their line into our neighborhood. The homes were built with oil or electric and the company feels like there are not enough potential customers to justify the cost.
If all cars are electric what happens in a 3 hour traffic jam, Dead batteries. Also almost no heat in electric cars.
Seem unlikely in most situations. Traffic jam implies that these vehicles aren't moving at anywhere near highway speeds for a significant amount of time and EVs are actually more efficient at slower speeds and can recoup power from the stopping part of stop and go traffic. It'd have to be something like a 3 hour traffic jam in an Alaskan winter in subzero temperatures for the lack of electric heat to make a strong difference. More likely for most people is that this amount of miles they were going to travel with a trip prolonged by 3 hours due to a traffic jam come out with less power usage than if they had made that same trip at 70-80 mph the whole way for the trip.
I'm in southern California and 40 degrees is freezing to me, I want a good heater.
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