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I'm sorry, but you lost me. I don't understand why God's power would be compromised by His having an adversary. He was definitely "almighty" enough to cast Satan (i.e. Lucifer) out of Heaven. Satan is the father of lies, evil and wickedness. He is diametrically opposed to everything God is. Why would he not be considered God's adversary?
Adversary is opponent, enemy, foe.... If God has an adversary then he would also have to be on even footing with the adversary wouldn't he?
Do you elevate satan or demean God by saying someone (satan) can be adversarial to God? Wouldn't that mean God has a weakness?
Isn't more true to say that humans have an adversary than for God to?
I don't believe satan is an adversary of God but an adversary of man.
Adversary is opponent, enemy, foe.... If God has an adversary then he would also have to be on even footing with the adversary wouldn't he?
I agree with you as to the meaning of the word, but I definitely don't agree with your assumption that adversaries must be on even footing with each other. After all, in every debate, you have at least two opponents. The stronger one wins the debate; the weaker one loses. In every war or conflict, you have a enemy or foe. The stronger one wins and the weaker is defeated. Adversaries are probably unequal more often than they are equal. I think I do understand your thought process, though. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I suspect you feel that if two adversaries must be on equal footing with each other, the victory could potentially go either way. To even consider the possibility that Satan could end up victorious is more than a little bit disconcerting. Let me just say that I don't believe they are even close to being on equal footing, although Satan might just be arrogant enough to think they are. Remember, it was God who cast Satan out of Heaven, not the other way around.
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Do you elevate satan or demean God by saying someone (satan) can be adversarial to God? Wouldn't that mean God has a weakness?
I'm neither elevating Satan or demeaning God, as I hope I already explained. The reason I believe Satan is God's adversary is that he is trying to keep as many of God's children from returning to His presence as possible. It's only with God's permission that Satan is even allowed to tempt us. He (i.e. God) could have completely annihilated Satan in the beginning, instead of simply casting him out of Heaven. He is wreaking the havoc in the world only because God is permitting him to, and God is permitting him to because there must be both good and evil in the world in order for us to really be free to choose between them. Quite possibly the greatest gift God ever gave us (aside from His Son's atoning sacrifice, of course) was the gift of free agency (i.e. freedom of choice or free will). Anyone who wants something different for us than what God wants for us is, in my opinion, God's adversary.
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Isn't more true to say that humans have an adversary than for God to?
To my way of thinking, no. I hope I've been able to explain why I believe as I do.
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I don't believe satan is an adversary of God but an adversary of man.
I believe he is an adversary of both God and man because he doesn't want to see us ever reconciled again. That would be a tremendous cause for sorrow for both God and us, in my opinion.
But does he want for mankind what God wants for mankind? If he does, then he's on God's side. If he doesn't, how can he not be considered God's adversary?
I agree with you as to the meaning of the word, but I definitely don't agree with your assumption that adversaries must be on even footing with each other. After all, in every debate, you have at least two opponents. The stronger one wins the debate; the weaker one loses. In every war or conflict, you have a enemy or foe. The stronger one wins and the weaker is defeated. Adversaries are probably unequal more often than they are equal. I think I do understand your thought process, though. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I suspect you feel that if two adversaries must be on equal footing with each other, the victory could potentially go either way. To even consider the possibility that Satan could end up victorious is more than a little bit disconcerting. Let me just say that I don't believe they are even close to being on equal footing, although Satan might just be arrogant enough to think they are. Remember, it was God who cast Satan out of Heaven, not the other way around.
First, I see what you are saying... however noone in their right mind debates or contests another if they have no chance of winning... no matter how arrogant they may be...IMO
Second, I don't see that satan was cast down at all.. There is no where I know of where the bible tells the story of satan being cast down. I tried to find out where belief came from when I was verifying my own set of beliefs inherited from my church as a child. I just don't see it.
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I'm neither elevating Satan or demeaning God, as I hope I already explained. The reason I believe Satan is God's adversary is that he is trying to keep as many of God's children from returning to His presence as possible. It's only with God's permission that Satan is even allowed to tempt us.
If God gave satan permission then God permits it. Therefore it is not outside the will of God and is not adversarial at all. IMO
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He (i.e. God) could have completely annihilated Satan in the beginning, instead of simply casting him out of Heaven. He is wreaking the havoc in the world only because God is permitting him to, and God is permitting him to because there must be both good and evil in the world in order for us to really be free to choose between them. Quite possibly the greatest gift God ever gave us (aside from His Son's atoning sacrifice, of course) was the gift of free agency (i.e. freedom of choice or free will). Anyone who wants something different for us than what God wants for us is, in my opinion, God's adversary.
Yet you said yourself that God COULD have him annihilated at any time when he (satan) steps out of God's will. I don't believe God is good and satan is evil. I believe God is good and evil... sovereign. If God is not all things then all things don't really belong to him. Some would then belong to satan. I believe satan is an adversarial state humans are in when there is strife and mayhem. Nothing supernatural about it.
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To my way of thinking, no. I hope I've been able to explain why I believe as I do.
You did! And thank you for elaborating. Hopefully I have been able to help you see what I believe better as well.
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I believe he is an adversary of both God and man because he doesn't want to see us ever reconciled again. That would be a tremendous cause for sorrow for both God and us, in my opinion.
What benefit would satan get for a human not being reconciled? I don't get that. Friends in hell? I don't understand how that would benefit satan or cause sorrow to God who allows it to happen.
First, I see what you are saying... however noone in their right mind debates or contests another if they have no chance of winning... no matter how arrogant they may be...IMO
If someone is arrogant enough, he thinks he has a chance of winning. I see Satan as falling into that category. Perhaps he is also just being hateful out of spite.
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Second, I don't see that satan was cast down at all.. There is no where I know of where the bible tells the story of satan being cast down. I tried to find out where belief came from when I was verifying my own set of beliefs inherited from my church as a child. I just don't see it.
Well, that's probably the crux of our disagreement. If you don't believe that Satan is the same individual as was previously known as Lucifer, you're unlikely to understand his motives in the same way I do.
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If God gave satan permission then God permits it. Therefore it is not outside the will of God and is not adversarial at all. IMO
God permits it, but only for a higher purpose. He certainly doesn't want us to choose to follow Satan, but He allows us the choice.
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Yet you said yourself that God COULD have him annihilated at any time when he (satan) steps out of God's will. I don't believe God is good and satan is evil. I believe God is good and evil... sovereign.
Again, we disagree. I believe there is nothing evil about God or in God.
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If God is not all things then all things don't really belong to him. Some would then belong to satan. I believe satan is an adversarial state humans are in when there is strife and mayhem. Nothing supernatural about it.
Well, I don't believe evil belongs to Him. Why would He want to own evil?
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You did! And thank you for elaborating. Hopefully I have been able to help you see what I believe better as well.
You did. Thank you as always for a civil, interesting and respectful dialogue.
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What benefit would satan get for a human not being reconciled?
Satisfaction. Just like a child who wants to turn everyone he knows against the kid he doesn't like. The more kids he gets to hate the kid he hates, the better.
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I don't get that. Friends in hell?
Sure. Remember Aesop's Fable that taught how "misery loves company"? It's true.
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I don't understand how that would benefit satan or cause sorrow to God who allows it to happen.
God allows Satan to tempt us because He wants us to be able to discern between good and evil. That doesn't mean He wants us to follow Satan. It's a risk He is willing to take because He knows that we can only progress by being allowed to make a choice.
Exactly!! It is absurd and I truly believe that God would not create a being to do what Satan does and then destroy him simply because he was doing what he was created to do. Now THAT'S illogical.
Ilene, I really don't want to change the subject, but what you just wrote is actually the [similar] core push behind the circular argument that "god condemns homosexuality because the bible says so and he would never create an individual with an orientation he condemns."
By the way, this is JUST a side note for some folks to keep in mind.
First, I see what you are saying... however noone in their right mind debates or contests another if they have no chance of winning... no matter how arrogant they may be...IMO
Second, I don't see that satan was cast down at all.. There is no where I know of where the bible tells the story of satan being cast down. I tried to find out where belief came from when I was verifying my own set of beliefs inherited from my church as a child. I just don't see it.
If God gave satan permission then God permits it. Therefore it is not outside the will of God and is not adversarial at all. IMO
Yet you said yourself that God COULD have him annihilated at any time when he (satan) steps out of God's will. I don't believe God is good and satan is evil. I believe God is good and evil... sovereign. If God is not all things then all things don't really belong to him. Some would then belong to satan. I believe satan is an adversarial state humans are in when there is strife and mayhem. Nothing supernatural about it.
Ah, Kat . . . you see so clearly. When Jesus rebuked Peter "Get thee behind me, Satan" . . . He revealed the true status of Satan. Surely Peter was not actually Satan. It was his "state of mind" that was. God is entirely concerned with our "state of mind" . . . our spiritual development and maturity. Our human nature is adversarial to it when it generates the negative human emotions and drives born of our human weaknesses . . which our souls are supposed to suppress.
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You did! And thank you for elaborating. Hopefully I have been able to help you see what I believe better as well.
What benefit would satan get for a human not being reconciled? I don't get that. Friends in hell? I don't understand how that would benefit satan or cause sorrow to God who allows it to happen.
Excellent!
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It is absurd and I truly believe that God would not create a being to do what Satan does and then destroy him simply because he was doing what he was created to do. Now THAT'S illogical.
