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Well once again Insane, you raise some good questions to which I have no answer. I've wondered about all of that myself and I see everyone is fumbling around trying to answer you but it's not working. This is where I say "it's a mystery".
And TA-DA! That was quick!
Like I said in post #3: Always, when we get to this point, we get the "We cannot begin to understand the wisdom and mystery of God."
Well once again Insane, you raise some good questions to which I have no answer. I've wondered about all of that myself and I see everyone is fumbling around trying to answer you but it's not working. This is where I say "it's a mystery".
The evidence of evolution and maturation as the underlying design God has built in to life is overwhelming . . . yet we continue to interpret the earliest evolutionary stage and veritable infancy of our species as if it were mature adulthood (which our species has not YET achieved IMO). We have to separate the childhood of our species from the individual maturation of its members. They are not the same. As I have said before . . . watch some old silent films of the serious and dramatic type. You will not see them as serious and dramatic . . . as did those MATURE ADULT audiences just a few generations removed from us. Imagine what the generations 2000 - 4000+ years removed from us were like!! Of course understanding the import of the recording from those stages of human evolution will be a mystery to our 21st century minds.
God originally made and sustained those He took out by the flood. They were His and He really didn't like them. As is fitting for a God, He took them all out by a cataclysmic event. He was the life giver, so He can legitimately be the life taker. He, "Kills and makes alive." says Scripture. God is not unfeeling uninvolved. He can get angry.
Look at some of the anti-God regimes of the 20th Century. Soviet Communism. Maoism, Hitler...surely you can understand how God would just get disgusted.
God originally made and sustained those He took out by the flood. They were His and He really didn't like them. As is fitting for a God, He took them all out by a cataclysmic event. He was the life giver, so He can legitimately be the life taker. He, "Kills and makes alive." says Scripture. God is not unfeeling uninvolved. He can get angry.
Look at some of the anti-God regimes of the 20th Century. Soviet Communism. Maoism, Hitler...surely you can understand how God would just get disgusted.
It should be a warning for your own life.
So, in other words, this perfect god screwed up and created defective people.
Look at some of the anti-God regimes of the 20th Century. Soviet Communism. Maoism, Hitler...surely you can understand how God would just get disgusted.
No, I don't see how a God that created the universe in a day would get disgusted at the doings or opinions of some mites inhabiting a speck of dust floating in the arm of a minor galaxy among the cosmos.
And ehh, Hitler was both a Christian and a creationist. The Nazis had "God with Us" on their belt buckles. Not exactly an "anti-God" bunch.
"We are a people of different faiths, but we are one. Which faith conquers the other is not the question; rather, the question is whether Christianity stands or falls.... We tolerate no one in our ranks who attacks the ideas of Christianity... in fact our movement is Christian. We are filled with a desire for Catholics and Protestants to discover one another in the deep distress of our own people"-Adolf Hitler
"We are determined, as leaders of the nation, to fulfill as a national government the task which has been given to us, swearing fidelity only to God, our conscience, and our Volk.... This the national government will regard its first and foremost duty to restore the unity of spirit and purpose of our Volk. It will preserve and defend the foundations upon which the power of our nation rests. It will take Christianity, as the basis of our collective morality, and the family as the nucleus of our Volk and state, under its firm protection....May God Almighty take our work into his grace, give true form to our will, bless our insight, and endow us with the trust of our Volk." -Adolf Hitler
"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice... And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people." -Adolf Hitler
"The Catholic Church considered the Jews pestilent for fifteen hundred years, put them in ghettos, etc, because it recognized the Jews for what they were".... I recognize the representatives of this race as pestilent for the state and for the church and perhaps I am thereby doing Christianity a great service by pushing them out of schools and public functions." -Adolf Hitler
"No, it is not we that have deserted Christianity, it is those who came before us who deserted Christianity. We have only carried through a clear division between politics which have to do with terrestrial things, and religion, which must concern itself with the celestial sphere. There has been no interference with the doctrine (Lehre ) of the Confessions or with their religious freedom (Bekenntnisfreiheit ), nor will there be any such interference. On the contrary the State protects religion, though always on the one condition that religion will not be used as a cover for political ends.... National Socialism neither opposes the Church nor is it anti-religious, but on the contrary it stands on the ground of a real Christianity.... For their interests cannot fail to coincide with ours alike in our fight against the symptoms of degeneracy in the world of to-day, in our fight against a Bolshevist culture, against atheistic movement, against criminality, and in our struggle for a consciousness of a community in our national life... These are not anti-Christian, these are Christian principles! And I believe that if we should fail to follow these principles then we should to be able to point to our successes, for the result of our political battle is surely not unblest by God."-Adolf Hitler
"God the Almighty has made our nation. By defending its existence we are defending His work.... Only He can relieve me of this duty Who called me to it. It was in the hand of Providence to snuff me out by the bomb that exploded only one and a half meters from me on July 20, and thus to terminate my life's work. That the Almighty protected me on that day I consider a renewed affirmation of the task entrusted to me.... Therefore, it is all the more necessary on this twelfth anniversary of the rise to power to strengthen the heart more than ever before and to steel ourselves in the holy determination to wield the sword, no-matter where and under what circumstances, until final victory crowns our efforts.... In the years to come I shall continue on this road, uncompromisingly safeguarding my people's interests, oblivious to all misery and danger, and filled with the holy conviction that God the Almighty will not abandon him who, during all his life, had no desire but to save his people from a fate it had never deserved, neither by virtue of its number nor by way of its importance.... In vowing ourselves to one another, we are entitled to stand before the Almighty and ask Him for His grace and His blessing. No people can do more than that everybody who can fight, fights, and that everybody who can work, works, and that they all sacrifice in common, filled with but one thought: to safeguard freedom and national honor and thus the future of life. -Adolf Hitler, in a radio address, 30 Jan. 1945
No, I don't see how a God that created the universe in a day would get disgusted at the doings or opinions of some mites inhabiting a speck of dust floating in the arm of a minor galaxy among the cosmos.
And ehh, Hitler was both a Christian and a creationist. The Nazis had "God with Us" on their belt buckles. Not exactly an "anti-God" bunch.
"We are a people of different faiths, but we are one. Which faith conquers the other is not the question; rather, the question is whether Christianity stands or falls.... We tolerate no one in our ranks who attacks the ideas of Christianity... in fact our movement is Christian. We are filled with a desire for Catholics and Protestants to discover one another in the deep distress of our own people"-Adolf Hitler
"We are determined, as leaders of the nation, to fulfill as a national government the task which has been given to us, swearing fidelity only to God, our conscience, and our Volk.... This the national government will regard its first and foremost duty to restore the unity of spirit and purpose of our Volk. It will preserve and defend the foundations upon which the power of our nation rests. It will take Christianity, as the basis of our collective morality, and the family as the nucleus of our Volk and state, under its firm protection....May God Almighty take our work into his grace, give true form to our will, bless our insight, and endow us with the trust of our Volk." -Adolf Hitler
"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice... And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people." -Adolf Hitler
"The Catholic Church considered the Jews pestilent for fifteen hundred years, put them in ghettos, etc, because it recognized the Jews for what they were".... I recognize the representatives of this race as pestilent for the state and for the church and perhaps I am thereby doing Christianity a great service by pushing them out of schools and public functions." -Adolf Hitler
"No, it is not we that have deserted Christianity, it is those who came before us who deserted Christianity. We have only carried through a clear division between politics which have to do with terrestrial things, and religion, which must concern itself with the celestial sphere. There has been no interference with the doctrine (Lehre ) of the Confessions or with their religious freedom (Bekenntnisfreiheit ), nor will there be any such interference. On the contrary the State protects religion, though always on the one condition that religion will not be used as a cover for political ends.... National Socialism neither opposes the Church nor is it anti-religious, but on the contrary it stands on the ground of a real Christianity.... For their interests cannot fail to coincide with ours alike in our fight against the symptoms of degeneracy in the world of to-day, in our fight against a Bolshevist culture, against atheistic movement, against criminality, and in our struggle for a consciousness of a community in our national life... These are not anti-Christian, these are Christian principles! And I believe that if we should fail to follow these principles then we should to be able to point to our successes, for the result of our political battle is surely not unblest by God."-Adolf Hitler
"God the Almighty has made our nation. By defending its existence we are defending His work.... Only He can relieve me of this duty Who called me to it. It was in the hand of Providence to snuff me out by the bomb that exploded only one and a half meters from me on July 20, and thus to terminate my life's work. That the Almighty protected me on that day I consider a renewed affirmation of the task entrusted to me.... Therefore, it is all the more necessary on this twelfth anniversary of the rise to power to strengthen the heart more than ever before and to steel ourselves in the holy determination to wield the sword, no-matter where and under what circumstances, until final victory crowns our efforts.... In the years to come I shall continue on this road, uncompromisingly safeguarding my people's interests, oblivious to all misery and danger, and filled with the holy conviction that God the Almighty will not abandon him who, during all his life, had no desire but to save his people from a fate it had never deserved, neither by virtue of its number nor by way of its importance.... In vowing ourselves to one another, we are entitled to stand before the Almighty and ask Him for His grace and His blessing. No people can do more than that everybody who can fight, fights, and that everybody who can work, works, and that they all sacrifice in common, filled with but one thought: to safeguard freedom and national honor and thus the future of life. -Adolf Hitler, in a radio address, 30 Jan. 1945
I understand that some lunatics may profess a belief in Christ and even say that what they are doing is in the name of Christ, and give compelling reasons for such, but certainly you can not be saying that people like Hitler, Jim Jones, David Koresh, etc. are people who you point to as a sign of Christianity...
That is the same as saying Nanacy Pelosi and Harry Reid are fiscal conservatives because they say the want to balance the budget...
Nonsense...
Jesus spoke of love, and taking care of those who couldn't take care of themselves, not killing them and asking quesitons later. Hitler is the Anti- of what Christ spoke about. It takes no genius to see that.
I am not sure if you are really quesitoning or just thinking with your fingers (out loud), but my God is perfect, and he did not create such imperfect people to begin with. But what he did do is create free will. Free will to act in a way that is totally opposite to what God desires, and free will to live how ever we humans want.
Quote:
Originally Posted by stuckinbalad
No, said perfect God made a people with free will and they turned away from God...but not all did.
Nothing to do with 'free-will'. Whether people had free-will or not is totally irrelevant. The point the OPer is making is that Biblegod is supposed to be omnimax and thus would be fully aware that people would 'sin' before he even started. Would be fully aware that he would have to destroy his 'creation' and start again and that having destroyed all but 8 people, it would not have any effect. That his creation had free will to do as they please doesn't even enter into the argument. Biblegod KNEW that they would fail before the plans were even on the table and therefore the question remains....why create something that you know is going to fail?
Biblegod KNEW that they would fail before the plans were even on the table and therefore the question remains....why create something that you know is going to fail?
This is not the mark of an omnipresent and omniscient god....it is more of an EPIC FAIL!! And the EPIC FAIL gets even bigger when it is taught that we will get the blame for something this god set us up to fail in to begin with.
Yep! Very much like leaving a loaded gun in a room with a small child, telling him not to shoot himself when you know that he will...then blaming the child when he does!!
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