Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
This kind of bickering is the reason why I am losing interest in this board.
Too bad, but I am not interested in unpleasantries, bickering, games, reading the same post 50 times and having people demand that others reply in someone post in a way which satisfies the poster.
Thanks, but no thanks Believe what you wish.
Never mind. I am sorry I even stopped by.
IMO that's a copout Finn.
But that's just the opinion of a "bickering thread policeman."
It happens all the time on forums.
ETers refuse to directly answer a question, and then complain that we keep insisting that you do answer the question.
I have the feeling that you know what trettep is going to say next, and you don't want to face up to it. Right?
Let's try it again.
trettep asked
Quote:
But let's look at the other way. If you don't believe it is PRESENT Tense in Matthew 7:14 then you admit that you believe it is FUTURE Tense, correct?
Last edited by rodgertutt; 12-08-2010 at 10:04 AM..
Reason: spelling
Hey, I'm in full agreement with you . The verb used in Mat. is in the present tense. Although to be fair, Luke (Luk 13:24) uses the future tense of those who will seek to enter in and will not be able. But this is speaking of a works based entrance into the Kingdom, not of those entering by grace. So the issue, as I understand it, is really not so much about the timing (present or future) but how one enters the Kingdom.
Rom 3:20 wherefore by works of law shall no flesh be declared righteous before Him, for through law is a knowledge of sin.
Regarding the WH Greek text: I'm not a fan of the WH or USB Greek texts. The Majority Text (the Textus Receptus or one of it's close Byzantine derivatives) are most likely in keeping with the original manuscripts. But to be honest, I'm not an expert on textual criticism and my ignorance is probably biased.
Yes, the verses in Luke are Future tense. But we (me and Finn_Jarber) can't move on to discuss Luke until he can acknowledge what tense he believes the verse in Matthew 7:14 is. Obviously, he has used the verse to support a Future tense as well as the one in Luke as a future tense. If he doesn't answer, then based on the association he leaves no other reasonable assumption then to conclude that he believes Matthew 7:14 depicts a future tense. If that is the case then he would find himself in denial of the following verse:
Hos 1:10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea,which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.
See Finn_Jarber used ANOTHER verse that he believe uphead the FUTURE tense perspective for Matthew 7:14. But here I have just used the same method to show from another verse that it cannot mean FUTURE Tense since eventually those that will be saved are NOT Few butt rather are innumerable.
Yes, the verses in Luke are Future tense. But we (me and Finn_Jarber) can't move on to discuss Luke until he can acknowledge what tense he believes the verse in Matthew 7:14 is. Obviously, he has used the verse to support a Future tense as well as the one in Luke as a future tense. If he doesn't answer, then based on the association he leaves no other reasonable assumption then to conclude that he believes Matthew 7:14 depicts a future tense. If that is the case then he would find himself in denial of the following verse:
Hos 1:10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea,which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.
See Finn_Jarber used ANOTHER verse that he believe uphead the FUTURE tense perspective for Matthew 7:14. But here I have just used the same method to show from another verse that it cannot mean FUTURE Tense since eventually those that will be saved are NOT Few butt rather are innumerable.
I see. Finn needs to be lead one step at a time...
Hos 1:10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea,which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.
Sorry, but this talks about Isreal and Judea coming together and electing a leader to rule them both.
If you don't want to think Jesus's words apply to today, then by all means, don't believe it.
Many saved... few saved.... which is it?
Of course tense matters in these discussions... well shown trettep.
And of course we have the future statements:
God will have all men to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth.
God will be all in all.
Every knee will bow and every tongue will confess and swear allegiance.
How do we reconcile all of these statements? There is only one way... its good news for all!
Sorry, but this talks about Isreal and Judea coming together and electing a leader to rule them both.
If you don't want to think Jesus's words apply to today, then by all means, don't believe it.
It only applied to the Jews during the time of Jesus.
Did you miss my post? Here it is again.
THE NARROW WAY AND THE FEW THAT FIND IT
It is true that Jesus said “narrow is the way, and few there will be that find it.” But consider the context. During Jesus’ earthly ministry He also said that He came only to the sheep of Israel … not to the Gentiles. Jesus’ earthly agenda was to prepare His people (Israel) for the restoration of the kingdom upon the earth. And for this, the people needed “superabounding righteousness” … they needed to “be perfect as your Heavenly Father is perfect” (Matt 5:48).
Before Jesus’ earthly ministry was concluded, and as He set forth all of the kingdom conditions, His disciples asked him, “Who consequently can be saved?” (Matt 19:25). Jesus response: “With men this is impossible, yet with God all is possible.” Narrow is the way for this kind of righteousness being required. So Israel was set aside (temporarily, not permanently – see Romans 11:25-26) until the millenial age that follows the one we are in right now.
But thru Paul, God began to do a new thing. Paul begins to talk about the body of Christ … justification (not just pardon) … grace alone (not grace + works). If left to men to respond with obedience (as was the call in that day) who could be saved? But all is possible with God, and that is what Paul tells us about.
Jesus also said that many are called, but few are chosen Matthew 22:14. It is the conclusion to a parable Jesus is tellings that concerns the kingdom. Like I said before, in Jesus' lifetime He went only to the Jews ... the "sheep of Israel." And this parable is intended to explain that while all of Israel was called, only SOME were fit to enter the wedding festivities. Most within Israel had rejected the King, and could not enter the feast ... they were not chosen. This rejection by the Jews continues, and much later Paul would explain that this "callousness" had come upon Israel until the full complement of the nations may enter (i.e. the body of Christ).
The "many are called and few are chosen" pertains to Israel, in the day that Jesus was proclaiming the kingdom to be established upon the earth. When this was rejected, Israel was temporarily set aside as the body of Christ is gathered (as in this present day) until the millenium.
But none of this can take away from the final climax of human history, when God becomes All in all ... when as in Adam all are dying, thus also in Christ shall all be made alive ... yet each in his own class. (1 Corinthians 15:20-28)
Those that use the "many are called but few are chosen" to say that only SOME will be saved are taking the parable out of context. It is true that only SOME were chosen in that day during which Jesus spoke, but once God's plan for all mankind is fully revealed ... after the death and resurrection of Christ and after the subsequent revelations made to the apostle Paul following the rejection of the kingdom message by Israel ... we see that ALL mankind will be saved.
God wills that all mankind be saved (1 Timothy 2:4)
God is operating all in accord with the counsel of His will (Ephesians 1:11)
As in Adam all are dying; thus also in Christ will all be made alive (1 Corinthians 15:22)
Jesus said many will not be saved. When the door is closed, they will stand outside but the owner will not let them in. Jesus spoke often about those who enter, and those who are left outside. If you don't want to believe it, then don't.
Jesus said many will not be saved. When the door is closed, they will stand outside but the owner will not let them in. Jesus spoke often about those who enter, and those who are left outside. If you don't want to believe it, then don't.
Many will not be saved at that time.
Eventually all mankind will be saved because
God wills that all mankind be saved (1 Timothy 2:4)
God is operating all in accord with the counsel of His will (Ephesians 1:11)
As in Adam all are dying; thus also in Christ will all be made alive (1 Corinthians 15:22)
Last edited by rodgertutt; 12-08-2010 at 11:14 AM..
Reason: addition
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
.
The opinion of a "bickering thread policeman"
Believe what you wish.
The narrow way and few that find it
