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Only those in Christ shall put on immortality...just as only those "in Adam" died....Adam was not the first biological man on earth, and neither was Christ the last man on earth. Adam was the first man brought into covenant with God...that is all the Bible says about it. To impose that he is the first man biologically, imposes a paradigm non existent in the text. Romans 5:13 says....for until law...not the mosaic law, but the LAW OF SIN AND DEATH...the one Adam instilled...there was sin in the world.
Whose sin? What sin? If there was sin, then there were people, before Adam. Adam isn't the first man. First man "in Covenant" with God. Christ disannuled the covenant with death. He gave LIFE to those in Adam, by the faith of Abraham, through circumcised Israel, and faith IN CHRIST.
Those in Covenant. Those of all living. Your paradigm falls short.
Where on earth are you getting all this stuff? LOL
Sin entered through (or by means of) Adam to the world:
Rom 5:12 because of this, even as through one man the sin did enter into the world, and through the sin the death; and thus to all men the death did pass through, for that all did sin;
And until the mosaic law was given, sin was not imputed, however it's consequences, death reigned:
Rom 5:13 for till law sin was in the world: and sin is not reckoned when there is not law;
Rom 5:14 but the death did reign from Adam till Moses, even upon those not having sinned in the likeness of Adam's transgression, who is a type of him who is coming.
Are you saying Adam is not the man through whom sin entered the world?
Sciota . . . like Mike 555 (btw where is he?) . . . is a proponent of a specific set of "precepts and doctrines of men" Alabama. Very rigid theology.
Yes...I think so. I wonder where Mike is too....I kind of miss him. Perhaps our friend is going through a little purging, a little refinement...and hopefully when he returns he'll be proclaiming the good tidings of Jesus .
Yes...I think so. I wonder where Mike is too....I kind of miss him. Perhaps our friend is going through a little purging, a little refinement...and hopefully when he returns he'll be proclaiming the good tidings of Jesus .
We can but hope, Alabama. It is a travesty how the "precepts and doctrines of men" have corrupted and confused the Good News of Jesus into such vile doctrines.
Are you saying Adam is not the man through whom sin entered the world?
What I am saying is that Adam was not the first man, as Romans 5 specifically says, along with several other in Genesis.
What does Paul say about sin and those who are "not" in covenant, or knew the law?
Romans 7:9For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
Acts 17:30And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
Sin is NOT imputed when there is no law.
When the law came, sin was imputed onto Adam and his line...his seed...his lineage...or else Paul would have never said anything of the sort in Acts 17, or Romans 7, or even Romans 5!
The source the death in Romans 5 is not the Mosaic law...the source of death is the law of sin and death Rom. 7:23; 8:2 This law existed in the garden, and it was the penalty that was attached to the transgression by Adam of God’s moral law by his disobedience to His commandments. For until the law sin was in the world. Sin existed before the law.
Men sinned before the law was given.
"Sin is not imputed when there is no law." No one was held guilty of sin, before the law was given.
"Death reigned from Adam to Moses (and beyond aorist tense)."
Isn't death an imputation of sin?
Therefore Adam had the law. (Had law, the article is not in the Greek.)
And therefore, sin existed in the world before Adam was given law.
What law was Adam given? A suggestion, "Don't eat of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil."
Good, but was that all?
In Exodus 18, Moses judged the people and taught law. Where did Moses get that law? The Ten Commandments were given in Exodus 20. The rest of the law follows. What law was Moses judging with and teaching before he received the law?
In Genesis 38, Judah understood and knew he was bound to Levirate marriage laws. These were not given until Deuteronomy 25. How did Judah know them? Why was he bound by them?
Noah knew which animals were clean and unclean. Who told him?
Cain and Abel knew how to conduct a proper sacrifice. How? Cain knew murder was wrong? Why?
Law predates Sinai. Law was given before Sinai.
Adam was the first to transgress the law.
Adam transgress/violated the law in Genesis 3. Death reigned from Genesis 3 on. Sin was imputed from Genesis 3 on.
Adam was given law before Genesis 3, that is, in Genesis 1 and/or 2.
Sin existed in the world before law was given. This is evident from comparing Genesis 1:2 with Jeremiah 4:22-23
22 For My people are foolish, They have not known Me. They are silly children, And they have no understanding. They are wise to do evil, But to do good they have no knowledge. 23 I beheld the earth, and indeed it was without form, and void; And the heavens, they had no light.
In Jeremiah 4:22-23 and Genesis 1:2, we see sin with no knowledge. In Gen. 1:3, we finally see the light. As the first covenant judgment, and like most other covenantal judgments, God pronounced judgment on his covenant people, as Adam was that very one, in covenant.
No, I am not. What I am saying is that Adam was not the first man, as Romans 5 specifically says, along with several other in Genesis. What does Paul say about sin and those who are "not" in covenant, or knew the law?
Romans 7:9For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
Acts 17:30And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
Sin is NOT imputed when there is no law. When the law came, sin was imputed onto Adam and his line....or else Paul would have never said anything of the sort in Acts 17, or Romans 7, or Romans 5!
The source the death in Romans 5 is not the Mosaic law...the source of death is the law of sin and death Rom. 7:23; 8:2 This law existed in the garden, and it was the penalty that was attached to the transgression by Adam of God’s moral law by his disobedience to His commandments. For until the law sin was in the world. Sin existed before the law.
Men sinned before the law was given.
"Sin is not imputed when there is no law." No one was held guilty of sin, before the law was given.
"Death reigned from Adam to Moses (and beyond aorist tense)."
Isn't death an imputation of sin?
Therefore Adam had the law. (Had law, the article is not in the Greek.)
And therefore, sin existed in the world before Adam was given law.
What law was Adam given? A suggestion, "Don't eat of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil."
Good, but was that all?
In Exodus 18, Moses judged the people and taught law. Where did Moses get that law? The Ten Commandments were given in Exodus 20. The rest of the law follows. What law was Moses judging with and teaching before he received the law?
In Genesis 38, Judah understood and knew he was bound to Levirate marriage laws. These were not given until Deuteronomy 25. How did Judah know them? Why was he bound by them?
Noah knew which animals were clean and unclean. Who told him?
Cain and Abel knew how to conduct a proper sacrifice. How? Cain knew murder was wrong? Why?
Law predates Sinai. Law was given before Sinai.
Adam was the first to transgress the law.
Adam transgress/violated the law in Genesis 3. Death reigned from Genesis 3 on. Sin was imputed from Genesis 3 on.
Adam was given law before Genesis 3, that is, in Genesis 1 and/or 2.
Sin existed in the world before law was given. This is evident from comparing Genesis 1:2 with Jeremiah 4:22-23
22 For My people are foolish, They have not known Me. They are silly children, And they have no understanding. They are wise to do evil, But to do good they have no knowledge. 23 I beheld the earth, and indeed it was without form, and void; And the heavens, they had no light.
In Jeremiah 4:22-23 and Genesis 1:2, we see sin with no knowledge. In Gen. 1:3, we finally see the light. As the first covenant judgment, and like most other covenantal judgments, God pronounced judgment on his covenant people, as Adam was that very one, in covenant.
Through Christ, we are set free in His covenant.
Little wonder that none of the early church fathers ever taught what you have been teaching recently (i.e "covenant theology") ...
Little wonder that there was almost no evidence at all for almost all of what you teach and believe during the first 3 hundred years after the death and resurrection of Christ.
Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 12-13-2010 at 08:10 PM..
Wow what a rabbit trail... we went from what happens to babies/children who die (they are sinners too) to mortality/immortality to "covenant theology".
What I am saying is that Adam was not the first man, as Romans 5 specifically says, along with several other in Genesis.
What does Paul say about sin and those who are "not" in covenant, or knew the law?
Romans 7:9For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
Paul uses the mosaic law to describe the law he is talking about:
Rom 7:8 `Thou shalt not covet;' and the sin having received an opportunity, through the command, did work in me all covetousness--for apart from law sin is dead.
Quote:
Acts 17:30
Quote:
And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
Sin is NOT imputed when there is no law.
When the law came, sin was imputed onto Adam and his line...his seed...his lineage...or else Paul would have never said anything of the sort in Acts 17, or Romans 7, or even Romans 5!
I'm at a total loss as to how you arrived at sin being imputed to Adam. This is total speculation on your part with no basis in scripture to support it.
Quote:
The source the death in Romans 5 is not the Mosaic law...the source of death is the law of sin and death Rom. 7:23; 8:2 This law existed in the garden, and it was the penalty that was attached to the transgression by Adam of God’s moral law by his disobedience to His commandments. For until the law sin was in the world. Sin existed before the law.
Yes, we agree that sin in Romans 5 predates the mosaic law. However, Paul in Romans 7 and 8 is discussing the mosaic law, as I clearly showed above.
Quote:
Men sinned before the law was given.
"Sin is not imputed when there is no law." No one was held guilty of sin, before the law was given.
"Death reigned from Adam to Moses (and beyond aorist tense)."
Agreed, that's exactly what I had also posted earlier. Men sinned prior to the mosaic law but the judicial verdict of being "guilty" was not given or imputed.
Quote:
Isn't death an imputation of sin?
No, it's not. Death was the consequence (the penalty phase if you will) of the covenant of works, in the Garden. And that is exactly what Paul told us: The "guilty" verdict of sin that emerges from the fallen nature is not imputed without law, but the on going penalty phase (death) of that sin "nevertheless reigned" (KJV). Do you see this?
Rom 5:13 for till law sin was in the world: and sin is not reckoned when there is not law;
Rom 5:14 but the death did reign from Adam till Moses, even upon those not having sinned in the likeness of Adam's transgression, who is a type of him who is coming.
Quote:
Therefore Adam had the law. (Had law, the article is not in the Greek.)
The covenant of works, not the mosaic law.
Quote:
And therefore, sin existed in the world before Adam was given law.
Agreed, Adam was given a covenant of works to abide by, but not a law, per se.
Quote:
What law was Adam given? A suggestion, "Don't eat of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil."
Good, but was that all?
In Exodus 18, Moses judged the people and taught law. Where did Moses get that law? The Ten Commandments were given in Exodus 20. The rest of the law follows. What law was Moses judging with and teaching before he received the law?
In Genesis 38, Judah understood and knew he was bound to Levirate marriage laws. These were not given until Deuteronomy 25. How did Judah know them? Why was he bound by them?
Noah knew which animals were clean and unclean. Who told him?
Cain and Abel knew how to conduct a proper sacrifice. How? Cain knew murder was wrong? Why?
Law predates Sinai. Law was given before Sinai.
Adam was the first to transgress the law.
Adam transgress/violated the law in Genesis 3. Death reigned from Genesis 3 on. Sin was imputed from Genesis 3 on.
Adam was given law before Genesis 3, that is, in Genesis 1 and/or 2.
Sin existed in the world before law was given. This is evident from comparing Genesis 1:2 with Jeremiah 4:22-23
22 For My people are foolish, They have not known Me. They are silly children, And they have no understanding. They are wise to do evil, But to do good they have no knowledge. 23 I beheld the earth, and indeed it was without form, and void; And the heavens, they had no light.
In Jeremiah 4:22-23 and Genesis 1:2, we see sin with no knowledge. In Gen. 1:3, we finally see the light. As the first covenant judgment, and like most other covenantal judgments, God pronounced judgment on his covenant people, as Adam was that very one, in covenant.
Through Christ, we are set free in His covenant.
This is all speculation here. Part of what you refer to as law was a covenant. And the rest that you call law was not law, per se, but perhaps oral tradition similar to what Paul gave to the Church in Corinth:
1Co 11:2 And I praise you, brethren, that in all things ye remember me, and according as I did deliver to you, the deliverances ye keep,
But it is not the mosaic law that Paul was speaking of in Roman's 7 and 8.
To be honest, your doctrines are new to me. This is certainly not coming form the reformed faith, is it? Oh, well...
Paul uses the mosaic law to describe the law he is talking about:
Rom 7:8 `Thou shalt not covet;' and the sin having received an opportunity, through the command, did work in me all covetousness--for apart from law sin is dead.
Actually, Adam did covet the fruit of the tree of knowledge, as did Eve.
So saying "thou shall not covet" as being ONLY a 10 commandment law is kinda stretching it.
It is like "thou shall not kill" being the same, yet when Cain killed Abel, he was banished. So this law must have been around as well.
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