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I guess you'll just have to omit the closed door with people standing outside.
I didn't say a word about eternal condemnation.
LOL right. That is what you think it means when the door is closed and people are left standing outside - you think it means eternal condemnation. Otherwise why are we having this conversation?
Quote:
For someone who dies in sin, the path is as follows:
- Birth
- Life
- Physical death
- Hades
- Judgment
- Lake of fire
When you die physical death without being saved, the door is shut, and there is no entry to the presence of the Lord.
In your game plan above, where does the following fit in:
- God being all in all
- God reconciling all things to Himself
- every knee bowing, every tongue confessing and swearing allegiance
- everyone joyfully praising His name
- God achieving His will to save all men and have them all come to a knowledge of the truth
When you die physical death without being saved, the door is shut, and there is no entry to the presence of the Lord.
Here is a snippet from A.P. Adams' GOD'S JUDGMENT
"However God deals with us, whether in mercy or in wrath, we may be sure that the "end" (i.e., the purpose in view), is always the same, "that the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy." (Jas. 5: 11). Hence, though "the stone which the builders rejected" (and are still rejecting) shall fall on many, those who are not willing to fall on it, yet they shall not thereby be utterly undone and ruined, as would seem to be indicated by the rendering in the common version, but rather winnowed, cleansed, and purified." http://thegloryrd.com/apadams/judgment.html
The idea that one can find salvation only during this life time is an unscriptural myth.
After death comes the judgment, yes, but that judgment will result in kolasis aionion which means age-during corrective chastisement for those who need it.
See what Greek scholars say about kolasis aionion in this link. Chapter Eleven
Greek scholar William Barclay wrote concerning kolasis aionion (age-during corrective chastisement) in Matthew 25:46
"The Greek word for punishment is kolasis, which was not originally an ethical word at all. It originally meant the pruning of trees to make them grow better. There is no instance in Greek secular literature where kolasis does not mean remedial punishment. It is a simple fact that in Greek kolasis always means remedial punishment. God's punishment is always for man's cure." (end quote)
Kolasis aionion doesn't save. Only Jesus saves. But it will condition the rebellious sinner to sooner or later reach out for the salvation that Jesus has provided by having them temporarily experience the consequences of their rebellion.
Unlike humans with their so very limited desire and ability to actually "reform" criminals in a reformatory, God, the "Judge," has no limit to the scope of both His DESIRE (born of the fact that He IS love personified not just loving), and His ABILITY to actually achieve reformation in the heart of the sinner because of what Christ accomplished for all by His death and resurrection, through the power in the blood of His cross.
God the "Judge," has the desire, the ability, and the determination, to sooner or later, successfully save all fallen creatures from everything from which they need to be saved, INCLUDING THEIR STUBBORN WILL.
This is the kind of God that we universal transformationists see in a correctly (literally, not interpretively) translated Bible. ABSOLUTE ASSURANCE IN JESUS CHRIST absolute assurance in jesus christ
Last edited by rodgertutt; 12-08-2010 at 01:54 PM..
Reason: correction
Salvation out of the lake of fire which is the 2nd death
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber
For someone who dies in sin, the path is as follows:
- Birth
- Life
- Physical death
- Hades
- Judgment
- Lake of fire
Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman
LOL right. That is what you think it means when the door is closed and people are left standing outside - you think it means eternal condemnation. Otherwise why are we having this conversation?
In your game plan above, where does the following fit in:
- God being All in all
- God reconciling all things to Himself
- every knee bowing, every tongue confessing and swearing allegiance
- everyone joyfully praising His name
- God achieving His will to save all men and have them all come to a knowledge of the truth
You seem to have omitted those details.
SALVATION OUT OF THE LAKE OF FIRE WHICH IS THE SECOND DEATH
Here's a snippet from L. Ray Smith's
THE LAKE OF FIRE
“I have been told by Christians many times that most of humanity will CHOOSE to be burned in the pain of literal hell fire for all ETERNITY, rather than to be saved by Jesus Christ! THEY LIE!
Any fireman worth his salt will save men, women, children, and even cats, dogs, and other pets, WHETHER THEY WANT TO BE SAVED OR NOT.
Imagine a mother being told by a fireman that he left her little girl back in a burning building because the little girl didn’t want to be rescued by a fireman?
Jesus Christ does not suffer the limitations of a fireman!
God wills that all mankind be saved (1 Timothy 2:4).
I will do all my pleasure. I have spoken it. I will also bring it to pass.
I have purposed it. I will also do it. (Isaiah 46:10,11) [end quote]
To quote the timely words of Ray Prinzing:
“We see the victory of the ultimate, a complete triumph over death, first death, second death, ALL DEATH to ultimately be brought to an end." (end quote)
God wills that all mankind be saved. (1 Timothy 2:4)
God is operating all in accord with the counsel of His will. (Ephesians 1:11)
As in Adam all are dying; thus also in Christwill all be made alive. (1 Corinthians 15:22)
For someone who dies in sin, the path is as follows:
- Birth
- Life
- Physical death
- Hades
- Judgment
- Lake of fire
And what about young children and infants who die shortly after birth? Where do they go according to your "path". Do you believe children are imputed with Adam's sin/transgression?:
Rom 5:12 because of this, even as through one man the sin did enter into the world, and through the sin the death; and thus to all men the death did pass through, for that all did sin;
And what about young children and infants who die shortly after birth? Where do they go according to your "path". Do you believe children are imputed with Adam's sin/transgression?:
Rom 5:12 because of this, even as through one man the sin did enter into the world, and through the sin the death; and thus to all men the death did pass through, for that all did sin;
Hmm, curious.
Does ALL MEN, mean all human beings,,,or just men and women and not children.
I would say the answer to you question is to be found in when does death pass onto a person ?.
I would say after my years of learning through the Word,,,is when we fall. I really don't feel a child can knowingly and willingly fall, since Jesus said the Kingdom belongs to those such as these-children.
Of course, I don't personally believe in original sin.
Does ALL MEN, mean all human beings,,,or just men and women and not children.
The word "men" in this particular verse is translated from the Greek word ἄνθρωπος and means mankind in general. Or better yet, any human being. Obviously, the context will help determine how the word is being used.
Whether or not infants and children are implied is probably determined more by ones doctrinal position. Often too, ἄνθρωπος is used with reference to our human nature. This would imply infants and children within that context if ones doctrinal position agrees with it.
That's why I posed the question. I wanted to know if Finn holds to imputation of sin at birth. How one views this shapes other doctrines that they hold to.
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What god's judgment will achieve
Salvation out of the lake of fire which is the 2nd death
...ya think...?