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IMO the ET vs UR issue really does come down to Bible translation.
Everyone will choose to believe whatever they are convinced is the truth about what the Bible teaches.
I posted on this forum to give people an alternate point of view. Had I known that one existed I never would have had a twelve year nervous breakdown 1966-78 over my inability to love a god who would allow anyone to actually prefer to suffer forever rather than eventually reach out for the salvation that God has provided. (Arminian), or deserve to suffer forever just by being born into the human race, "totally depraved" and not one of the "elect." (Calvinist)
I'm 72 years old now.
THE FOLLOWING HAS, AND ALWAYS WILL BE TRUE REGARDING THE DEBATE ABOUT ETERNAL TORMENT
The argument about “eternal hell” nearly always gets bogged down with the words, “My Greek scholars are more reliable than your Greek scholars,” and the result is nearly always a stalemate.
My Greek scholars are Louis Abbott and the many Greek scholars he quotes in chapters three and twelve of AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS An Analytical Study of Words
If you think it glorifies God more to let some of His creatures suffer forever, or annihilate them, then you keep believing that.
But if you think it glorifies God more to eventually meet everyone on the level of their greatest and deepest need which is a change in their stubborn will, then know that there is plenty of evidence in the Bible that that is exactly what God is like.
Last edited by rodgertutt; 12-06-2010 at 07:33 AM..
Reason: correction
Jesus tells us the wide path leads to destruction. You can believe your own spin or you can believe Jesus. The choice is yours alone to make. Jesus does not need to correct His word nor should anyone else. Jesus spoke correctly the first time.
Jesus also said He came to seek and to save the lost (lit. "destroyed") sheep of the House of Israel.
And Jesus said to His disciples if they *destroy* their souls now that in the future they will get them.
So how destroyed is destruction?
Campbell, there were just a few who were able, through the narrow way of the law to find life. Moses screwed up but Joshua found it.
Today, under grace, there is no narrow way leading to life. It is free and without works . . . unearned. dig?
Here is the YLT : Luke 13 "`Be striving to go in through the straight gate, because many, I say to you, will seek to go in, and shall not be able; "
Luk 13:24 Be struggling to be entering through the cramped door, for I am
saying to you, many will be seeking to enter and will not be strong
enough." (Concordant Literal).
Under grace today, it is not a matter of being strong enough. God chooses
those who are weak! Grace is the broad way today and many there are
that God saved without our strength.
In Jesus' day, under law, the law was very restrictive and narrow and few
were not strong enough to enter the kingdom that way. Get it?
"We are “called according to the purpose that, whom He foreknew, He designates beforehand, also, to be conformed to the image of His Son” (Rom.8:29). The thought here is not that He knew something about us, but that He “knew” us. This speaks not of His ignorance of others, but of His special “knowledge” of us.
God’s literal prescience or foreknowledge of our faith or works cannot be in view, for membership in the body of Christ is a matter of grace, not reward. Since salvation is not a matter of qualification, it is surely mistaken to assert that foreknowledge is merely knowing ahead of time who will qualify to be saved.
Besides, “free will” faith and acts could never be foreknown. Since there is always a “chance” they might never occur, their future existence could not be an object of knowledge. On the other hand, where faith and acts are foreknown, their occurrence is inevitable, and thus it becomes impossible but that they should occur." (end quote)
The Calvinist are right about God's "irresistible grace."
But they are wrong that God's grace will not eventually include everyone.
Luk 13:24 Be struggling to be entering through the cramped door, for I am
saying to you, many will be seeking to enter and will not be strong
enough." (Concordant Literal).
Under grace today, it is not a matter of being strong enough. God chooses
those who are weak! Grace is the broad way today and many there are
that God saved without our strength.
In Jesus' day, under law, the law was very restrictive and narrow and few
were not strong enough to enter the kingdom that way. Get it?
Concordant Literal is a kin to the Watch Towers New World Translation. If you are looking to be misled. This is the Bible for you. Cults cannot exist with any form of the Bible that has not been played with by their people.
The King James Bible is the greatest "cult" of all
Quote:
Originally Posted by Campbell34
Concordant Literal is a kin to the Watch Towers New World Translation. If you are looking to be misled. This is the Bible for you. Cults cannot exist with any form of the Bible that has not been played with by their people.
"We are “called according to the purpose that, whom He foreknew, He designates beforehand, also, to be conformed to the image of His Son” (Rom.8:29). The thought here is not that He knew something about us, but that He “knew” us. This speaks not of His ignorance of others, but of His special “knowledge” of us.
God’s literal prescience or foreknowledge of our faith or works cannot be in view, for membership in the body of Christ is a matter of grace, not reward. Since salvation is not a matter of qualification, it is surely mistaken to assert that foreknowledge is merely knowing ahead of time who will qualify to be saved.
Besides, “free will” faith and acts could never be foreknown. Since there is always a “chance” they might never occur, their future existence could not be an object of knowledge. On the other hand, where faith and acts are foreknown, their occurrence is inevitable, and thus it becomes impossible but that they should occur." (end quote)
The Calvinist are right about God's "irresistible grace."
But they are wrong that God's grace will not eventually include everyone.
Jesus Himself tells you, that only a few will enter the narrow gate. It appears you don't believe Jesus. And it looks to me like your trying to force fit your beliefs even when Scripture does not support them. And that is how cults get started. And that is why such beliefs are only support by strange translations of the Bible.
Most Bibles support the teaching of eternal torment. Only such Bibles that are pushed by the Watch Tower Society, and other such cults would divert from that understanding. And if your going to blame the King James Bible. Then you should point out the great number of other Bibles that agree with the King James. Please don't mislead people into thinking it is only the King James that your having a problem with here. And even when Greek Scholars point to the fact that these cults have played with the Biblical words. These cults ignore their complaints. Your beliefs do not agree with the main stream Christian understanding. Nor does your beliefs agree with the Word of God. Your beliefs only find a home in established cults. And in fact, your beliefs cannot even confirm Christ teachings about the narrow Gate. And that is because I don't believe you agree with all of Christ teachings. And usually only cult like members are the ones that would disagree with Him.
Jesus Himself tells you, that only a few will enter the narrow gate. It appears you don't believe Jesus. And it looks to me like your trying to force fit your beliefs even when Scripture does not support them. And that is how cults get started. And that is why such beliefs are only support by strange translations of the Bible.
Here is a snippet from John Hanson's BIBLE THREATENINGS EXPLAINED – John Wesley Hanson
under THE STRAIT GATE
Every careful reader will see that the language is entirely confined to the present.
"Lord, are there few that be 'saved'?" The literal rendering is: "Are those being saved few?"
The question relates entirely to the number then accepting Christianity.
"Are there few that are now being saved?" is the literal rendering of the question; From what? Not from endless torment, but from certain evil consequences in this world.
Whoever refers the language to the final condition of the human race must admit that only a few will ever be holy and happy, while the great multitude will be lost. It has no such application, but teaches that at the time Jesus spoke the many went wrong, while only the few chose the way of life.
The rest of John's exposition can be read here Bible Threatenings Explained
SCROLL DOWN AND CLICK ON STRAIT GATE
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What is foreknown MUST occur
The King James Bible is the greatest "cult" of all
