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Verna, it seems that the only opinions that you want to hear are the ones that agree with what you say 100%. If you don't dislike me - you sure have a funny way of showing it! You are sarcastic, dismissive, and just plain rude to me and almost everyone else who disagrees with you or who tries to challenge you - including other believers. I just don't get it.
And once again - I don't understand why - if you are so concerned about what happens to the nonbelievers (and everyone else who doesn't believe as you do) after we die - then shouldn't we be there very people that you should be talking to? What's the point of trying to convince other believers when you believe that they will be going to Heaven along slide you? It seems that if this was really coming from a place of love - that you would want to talk to the unbelievers. It seems that you would have been more than happy to welcome the comments from the unbelievers and show them love and compassion. Instead - you are combative and dimismissive and arrogant. It just doesn't quite make sense to me.
And do all the people that don't keep the Sabbath get annihilated, too - or is it enough to accept Jesus as your saviour?
Of course it doesn't make sense. It is non-sense. But it is not just Verna who acts this way -- it is every religious person who is filled with a notion of "utter Certainty" rather than "faith". What could be more dangerous than a person who is full of certainty mixed with error? It leads to extreme arrogance and a mandatory looking down on others. If something stinks, it is likely because there is death nearby. At no time have I ever been more fed up with religious dogmatists than I am now. They will get no where with me.
Verna, it seems that the only opinions that you want to hear are the ones that agree with what you say 100%. If you don't dislike me - you sure have a funny way of showing it! You are sarcastic, dismissive, and just plain rude to me and almost everyone else who disagrees with you or who tries to challenge you - including other believers. I just don't get it.
And once again - I don't understand why - if you are so concerned about what happens to the nonbelievers (and everyone else who doesn't believe as you do) after we die - then shouldn't we be there very people that you should be talking to? What's the point of trying to convince other believers when you believe that they will be going to Heaven along slide you? It seems that if this was really coming from a place of love - that you would want to talk to the unbelievers. It seems that you would have been more than happy to welcome the comments from the unbelievers and show them love and compassion. Instead - you are combative and dimismissive and arrogant. It just doesn't quite make sense to me.
And do all the people that don't keep the Sabbath get annihilated, too - or is it enough to accept Jesus as your saviour?
I AM! talking to you...it just isn't what you want to hear..and I am sorry about that...but it is what it is. I don't play games..this is serious stuff..a matter of life and death...and again...I am not here to make friends...Jesus didn't make a whole lot of friends when He spoke the Words His Father gave Him...they hung Him on a cross and crucified Him...I haven't bled yet...I serve my Father in the way He requires me to...and I don't have to answer to you or anyone else about it. O.k..?
Look...I've been on this forum now for a long time...and I have more than given an ear to what others have to say about their beliefs, I have the battle scars...and I have debated and rejected and received and fought and cried and hollered and celebrated with the best of them...no...I'm not done with all of it either...I just know who I am going to spend my time with and who I am not...I know who is truly seeking and who wants truthful guidance and who does not...I pick my battles...no more 6 or more hour long marathons of debating back and forth...I know what the truth is...and I stand upon it...and I know what others here stand upon as well...and I know who will not change because of anything I have to say.
You're happy...right...? Stay that way! Have a great life...and a good sleep when it is all over with..like you said...you'll just die and go to sleep..and thats "a beautiful thing." Why do you keep bothering me with all the adjectives you have to pin upon me?...as if you think we could begin a conversation starting like that? Just do unto me like you want others to do unto you...leave me alone...I'm happy!
If, however, you want to discuss, heart to heart a subject in the Scriptures...I'm all for that! Always have been. I am in no mood however, for endless, nonsensical conversation though.
God Bless.
In Christ's love...and prayerfully in His truth,
Verna.
Of course it doesn't make sense. It is non-sense. But it is not just Verna who acts this way -- it is every religious person who is filled with a notion of "utter Certainty" rather than "faith". What could be more dangerous than a person who is full of certainty mixed with error? It leads to extreme arrogance and a mandatory looking down on others. If something stinks, it is likely because there is death nearby. At no time have I ever been more fed up with religious dogmatists than I am now. They will get no where with me.
You know, Verna, I knew it was foolish of me to try to talk to you anyway. I guess I just don't understand why people don't focus on the good things about religion and love and life. I just don't understand all the debate about what will happen to the nonbelievers after we die since the believers already "know" that they, themselves will go to Heaven. I would say that it's because of love and concern for where everyone else will go - but after hearing everything that the ET'ers and you have to say about the matter - it just seems that it is more about proving to everyone how you know you are right than it is about caring about anyone else. I just don't get any sense of love or compassion from such conversations. If I am wrong - then maybe you all should rethink the way you approach these subjects. And, yes, I know that I'm not a Christian - but many of the Christians seems to agree with me on this.
I will leave you in peace, Verna - and will hopefullly never try to talk to you again. I can't make any promises though - I'm a pretty spunky person and can be pretty impusive sometimes!
So, when all sinners are annihilated, the lake of fire will still be burning with nothing in it? Am I understanding you correctly?
The "eternal" lake of fire refers to the permanence of the result...not the continuaton of a process. Look at Jude 7...it says that Sodom and Gomorrah underwent "a punishment of eternal [aionios] fire." It is evident that the fire that destroyed the two cities is eternal, not because of its duration but because of its permanent results.
"to destroy–apollumi."
The fact that Jesus clearly speaks of God destroying both the soul and body in hell shows that hell is the place where sinners are ultimately destroyed and not eternally tormented.
The combination of these two passages:
[Matthew 18:8-9, where Jesus repeats what He had said earlier in (Matt 5:29-30) about forfeiting a member of the body in order to escape the "eternal fire" of hell–gehenna. An even clearer reference to "eternal fire" is found in the parable of the Sheep and the Goats in which Christ speaks of the separation that takes place at His coming between the saved and the unsaved. He will welcome the faithful into His kingdom, but will reject the wicked, saying: "Depart from me, you cursed, into eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; . . . And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life" (Matt 25:41, 46).]
...is interpreted to mean that the punishment is eternal because the hellfire that causes it is also eternal.
["The fire itself is termed ‘eternal’ and ‘unquenchable,’ but it would be very odd if what is thrown into it proves indestructible. Our expectation would be the opposite: it would be consumed for ever, not tormented for ever. Hence it is the smoke (evidence that the fire has done its work) which ‘rises for ever and ever’ (Rev 14:11; cf. 19:3)."
The fire is "eternal–aionios," not because of its endless duration, but because of its complete consumption and annihilation of the wicked. This is indicated clearly by the fact that the lake of fire, in which the wicked are thrown, is called explicitly "the second death" (Rev 20:14; 21:8), because, it causes the final, radical, and irreversible extinction of life.] John Slott.
...and I totally, with all of my heart, agree.
God Bless.
In Christ's love...and prayerfully in His truth,
Verna.
You were created by God just like I was old_cold...with the same measure of faith as I...it must be "IGNITED!" as He is no respecter of persons. I can't say why you do not have faith...only God can answer that. It is between you and Him.
I truly hope you find God through Jesus Christ, and the answers you say you seek.
God Bless.
In Christ's love...and prayerfully in His truth,
Verna.
That's not true, a person is either chosen or not, there is far more biblical evidence for predestination than free will, that's why many of us that tried to find peace for many years never did, we were not chosen in the first place
Matthew 22:14 "For many are called, but few are chosen."
Joh 13:18 I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me.
***********************************
Rom 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
***********************************
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
*************************
Myself, and many others were never chosen in the first place...that's why we don't have faith (it was a hard thing for me to accept initially, but I'm slowly coming to terms with it)
I agree with the other non-christians who have posted in the thread, we may as well enjoy our lives and do the best we can while we are still alive, before the axe comes down on us all
I look forward to my eventual non-existence someday
Last edited by TheUnknown67; 10-02-2010 at 06:02 PM..
...blah...blah...blah...round and round we go go trettep...the same 'ol UR "stuff", over and over again...I've heard it all 1000 times...I am numb to it now...
...and Yes, I did answer Yes to your question...of course He can...and the answer is, He will not, He wants it to be our decision to love and follow Him and His commandments...He said, "Do this, IF!...", He said, "Do that, IF!...", He said, "COME!...", He said, "If you love Me, keep my commandments...", He said, "This is he who loves Me, he who keepeth My commandments...", He said, "Keepeth...", He said, "Lay hold to...", He said, "Hear My Words...", He said, "Walk as Jesus walked...holy and blameless..."...He said so many things that require an ACTION from YOU!...from all of US!
UR is a false gospel, it takes away all responsibility of the sinner and requires it of Jesus again and again...He is D_O_N_E!~! as in FINISHED with ALL He is required to do, Period...now it is up to you.
Eternal torment is a false gospel too...and what will UR'ers do with annihilation...it isn't received well by you all...I understand. It's just more of the false teachings of Modern Christianity...some way to get out of the reality of being soul dead forever if you die in your sin...any way to get out of it..but it isn't going to happen...sorry.
God Bless.
In Christ's love...and prayerfully in His truth,
Verna.
See you admit "of course he can" in reference to the fact that He can remove our wicked nature. But yet you continue to think that he won't remove all of ours even though He can.
I know you don't want to debate me rationally and logically on this subject because you will have to DEPART from logic and rationality. So now that you admit that God CAN remove the wickedness from ANYONE. Tell me what is the reason that He would NOT remove it from ANYONE.
The "eternal" lake of fire refers to the permanence of the result...not the continuaton of a process. Look at Jude 7...it says that Sodom and Gomorrah underwent "a punishment of eternal [aionios] fire." It is evident that the fire that destroyed the two cities is eternal, not because of its duration but because of its permanent results.
"to destroy–apollumi."
The fact that Jesus clearly speaks of God destroying both the soul and body in hell shows that hell is the place where sinners are ultimately destroyed and not eternally tormented.
The combination of these two passages:
[Matthew 18:8-9, where Jesus repeats what He had said earlier in (Matt 5:29-30) about forfeiting a member of the body in order to escape the "eternal fire" of hell–gehenna. An even clearer reference to "eternal fire" is found in the parable of the Sheep and the Goats in which Christ speaks of the separation that takes place at His coming between the saved and the unsaved. He will welcome the faithful into His kingdom, but will reject the wicked, saying: "Depart from me, you cursed, into eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; . . . And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life" (Matt 25:41, 46).]
...is interpreted to mean that the punishment is eternal because the hellfire that causes it is also eternal.
["The fire itself is termed ‘eternal’ and ‘unquenchable,’ but it would be very odd if what is thrown into it proves indestructible. Our expectation would be the opposite: it would be consumed for ever, not tormented for ever. Hence it is the smoke (evidence that the fire has done its work) which ‘rises for ever and ever’ (Rev 14:11; cf. 19:3)."
The fire is "eternal–aionios," not because of its endless duration, but because of its complete consumption and annihilation of the wicked. This is indicated clearly by the fact that the lake of fire, in which the wicked are thrown, is called explicitly "the second death" (Rev 20:14; 21:8), because, it causes the final, radical, and irreversible extinction of life.] John Slott.
...and I totally, with all of my heart, agree.
God Bless.
In Christ's love...and prayerfully in His truth,
Verna.
Aionios doesn't mean permanent. See here:
Rom 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
The secret was kept aionios. If it was kept permanent it would never have been revealed.
You know, Verna, I knew it was foolish of me to try to talk to you anyway. I guess I just don't understand why people don't focus on the good things about religion and love and life. I just don't understand all the debate about what will happen to the nonbelievers after we die since the believers already "know" that they, themselves will go to Heaven. I would say that it's because of love and concern for where everyone else will go - but after hearing everything that the ET'ers and you have to say about the matter - it just seems that it is more about proving to everyone how you know you are right than it is about caring about anyone else. I just don't get any sense of love or compassion from such conversations. If I am wrong - then maybe you all should rethink the way you approach these subjects. And, yes, I know that I'm not a Christian - but many of the Christians seems to agree with me on this.
I will leave you in peace, Verna - and will hopefullly never try to talk to you again. I can't make any promises though - I'm a pretty spunky person and can be pretty impusive sometimes!
The reason that non Universalists adhere to annihilationism and hellfire talk is because they need to persuade with FEAR. They want you to believe that you can QUALIFY to be saved. They need that FEAR it is at the CORE of their persuasion. Whereas OURS has the Love of God at its Core and His ALMIGHTY Universal Saving Power that can turn ANY and ALL Garments Clean. I thank God that He is Fuller's Soap and can burn the impurity away from us.
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annihilation...it isn't received well by you all...I understand. It's just more of the false teachings of Modern Christianity...some way to get out of the reality of being soul dead forever if you die in your sin...any way to get out of it..but it isn't going to happen...sorry.
