The Final ET/UR Showdown (members, hell, punishment, beliefs)
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His people are the Israelites...And that is who He is speaking to...Not everyone in the whole world...Prove that Jerusalem is a spiritual word in this context...Where within the Scriptures is the key or even implication that that is a 'spiritual' word?...You cannot take something that is meant for one group of people and apply it broadly...to all peoples...Of course flesh and blood cannot enter the Kingdom Of Heaven for it is an ethereal place, it is spiritual...However, that is not what that verse was talking about...
The "precious cornerstone" that has been laid "in Sion" is not a piece of geological material laying somewhere in the Middle East. It's a spiritual metaphor of a deeper reality. And I (personally) believe that Sion means man's heart. Christ is there, and to be found only there. No holy land tour will show you that.
Jerusalem is the same thing. A spiritual indicator. Jacob is another good example. God is not concerned with one individual named Jacob who lived long ago. He is a spiritual metaphor or "type" relating a real element of man, God's creation. The "earth" refers to man in (a carnal sense). "Thy will be done "in earth" is not about a planet called earth. It is about man. Nothing more.
Taking a long look at modern Israelites, it's hard to imagine how God can call Himself "holy" and "love" and still associate with Israelites...
In a nutshell: God is not interested in real estate, and He doesn't play favorites.
Salvation cannot occur after death...That is the whole point in the urgencey of believing in this lifetime...
If that were true, then Jesus could have warned people while he was here talking to them face to face. He could have said that He would die and rise again and if people didn't believe it they would burn forever, but He didn't. He spent His time with things like the sermon on the mount, and telling people to love God and each other. NOWHERE IN THE BIBLE does it say to go "warn" people of the "good news."
Salvation cannot occur after death...That is the whole point in the urgencey of believing in this lifetime...
It is an unscriptural myth that salvation cannot occur after death.
IMO, this proves you wrong.
God will have (wants if you like) all men to be saved (1 Timothy 2:4)
It is God’s “pleasure” that all mankind be saved.
And “God is operating all in accord with the counsel of His will” (Ephesians 1:11).
Change it to read “in accord with the counsel of what He wants if you like.
Because God says
"My counsel shall stand. I will do all my pleasure
(the saving of all mankind is part of the pleasure that God wants)
Yea I have spoken it.
I will also bring it to pass.
I have purposed it.
I will also do it."
Isaiah 46:10,11
Job 23:13 “But he stands alone, and who can oppose Him? He does whatever he pleases.
(the saving of all mankind is part of what He wants that pleases Him).
Isaiah 55:11 so is my word that goes out from my mouth:
It will not return to me empty, but will accomplish what I desire
and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.
(the saving of all mankind is part of all of which God desires or wants)
So we see God does all His pleasure, He does whatever He pleases, and His word accomplishes that which He desires.
His pleasure, that which He desires and pleases Him is what He wants.
His will = What He wants
What does He want?
THE SALVATION OF ALL MANKIND
Why will it happen? Because God Himself will see to it that it gets done.
Any cooperation towards our salvation is the result, not the cause of God laying hold on us by His saving grace and causing Jesus to be "choice" in our heart, just like it was in the case of Lydia and Saul of Tarsus.
The opinions of exactly how God will achieve universal salvation may differ from UR to UR just like, as Bright Hope pointed out, the opinions of ETers also vary from person to person about what the Bible teaches about salvation.
We know this because God will have (wants if you like) all men to be saved (1 Timothy 2:4)
It is God’s “pleasure” that all mankind be saved.
And “God is operating all in accord with the counsel of His will” (Ephesians 1:11).
You can say wants all you like...You and I both know that you wish it was written in the Greek with the future tense of save (will save)...When in fact it doesn't...It is thelei, wants or desires...And the fact that the author was speaking to a specific audience...
Here is who Paul is speaking to, his audience:
Eph 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
The whole letter to the Ephesian Church is to the saints regarding the saints...
Same with the first letter by Paul to Timothy...I read the complete letter...It is instruction to the saints regarding the saints...There are for the unbelievers and those that turned back only negative comments not good news...
Quote:
Originally Posted by rodgertutt
Change it to read “in accord with the counsel of what He wants if you like.
Because God says
"My counsel shall stand. I will do all my pleasure
(the saving of all mankind is part of the pleasure that God wants)
Yea I have spoken it.
I will also bring it to pass.
I have purposed it.
I will also do it."
Isaiah 46:10,11
Isa 46:1 Bel boweth down, Nebo stoopeth, their idols were upon the beasts, and upon the cattle: your carriages were heavy loaden; they are a burden to the weary beast.
Isa 46:2 They stoop, they bow down together; they could not deliver the burden, but themselves are gone into captivity.
Isa 46:3 Hearken unto me, O house of Jacob, and all the remnant of the house of Israel, which are borne by me from the belly, which are carried from the womb:
Isa 46:4 And even to your old age I am he; and even to hoar hairs will I carry you: I have made, and I will bear; even I will carry, and will deliver you.
Isa 46:5 To whom will ye liken me, and make me equal, and compare me, that we may be like?
Isa 46:6 They lavish gold out of the bag, and weigh silver in the balance, and hire a goldsmith; and he maketh it a god: they fall down, yea, they worship.
Isa 46:7 They bear him upon the shoulder, they carry him, and set him in his place, and he standeth; from his place shall he not remove: yea, one shall cry unto him, yet can he not answer, nor save him out of his trouble.
Isa 46:8 Remember this, and shew yourselves men: bring it again to mind, O ye transgressors.
Isa 46:9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,
Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
Isa 46:11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.
Isa 46:12 Hearken unto me, ye stouthearted, that are far from righteousness:
Isa 46:13 I bring near my righteousness; it shall not be far off, and my salvation shall not tarry: and I will place salvation in Zion for Israel my glory.
Hmmm...Looks like He is speaking to Israel...Not the whole world...Imagine that...
Quote:
Originally Posted by rodgertutt
Job 23:13 “But he stands alone, and who can oppose Him? He does whatever he pleases.
(the saving of all mankind is part of what He wants that pleases Him).
Job 23:13 But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? and what his soul desireth, even that he doeth.
Hmmmm...Hawyaw has a soul?...These are Job's words...Not Hawyaw's...So, you make a doctrine from the words of Job...A man?...
Quote:
Originally Posted by rodgertutt
Isaiah 55:11 so is my word that goes out from my mouth:
It will not return to me empty, but will accomplish what I desire
and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.
(the saving of all mankind is part of all of which God desires or wants)
Again...In context He is speaking to Israel...His people...This is specifically made in reference to Israel...You cannot apply this to the Gentiles nor the whole world for that matter...
Quote:
Originally Posted by rodgertutt
So we see God does all His pleasure, He does whatever He pleases, and His word accomplishes that which He desires.
His pleasure, that which He desires and pleases Him is what He wants.
His will = What He wants
What does He want?
THE SALVATION OF ALL MANKIND
Why will it happen? Because God Himself will see to it that it gets done.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rodgertutt
Any cooperation towards our salvation is the result, not the cause of God laying hold on us by His saving grace and causing Jesus to be "choice" in our heart, just like it was in the case of Lydia and Saul of Tarsus.
The opinions of exactly how God will achieve universal salvation may differ from UR to UR just like, as Bright Hope pointed out, the opinions of ETers also vary from person to person about what the Bible teaches about salvation.
After all you said in your last post, this still remains true.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rodgertutt So we see God does all His pleasure, He does whatever He pleases, and His word accomplishes that which He desires. His pleasure, that which He desires and pleases Him is what He wants.
His will = What He wants What does He want? THE SALVATION OF ALL MANKIND Why will it happen? Because God Himself will see to it that it gets done.
It really does come down to which scholars you choose to rely on.
That is why the ET/UR debate will always get bogged down in a hopeless deadlock ending in a stalemate, with each side choosing their preferred Greek scholars.
Everyone will choose to believe whatever they are convinced is the truth about what the Bible teaches. I post on forums to give people an alternate point of view. Had I known that one existed I never would have had a horrific twelve year nervous breakdown 1966-78 over my inability to love a god who would allow anyone actually prefer to suffer forever rather than eventually reach out for the salvation that God has provided. I'm 73 years old now.
THE FOLLOWING HAS, AND ALWAYS WILL BE TRUE REGARDING THE DEBATE ABOUT ETERNAL TORMENT
The argument about “eternal hell” nearly always gets bogged down with the words, “My Greek scholars are more reliable than your Greek scholars,” and the result is nearly always a stalemate.
My Greek scholars are Louis Abbott and the many Greek scholars he quotes in chapters three and twelve.
AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS An Analytical Study of Words
If you think it glorifies God more to let some of His creatures suffer forever, or annihilate them, then you keep believing that.
But if you think it glorifies God more to eventually meet everyone on the level of their greatest and deepest need which is a change in their stubborn will, then know that there is plenty of evidence in the Bible that is exactly what God is like.
Last edited by rodgertutt; 10-17-2011 at 11:36 AM..
The "precious cornerstone" that has been laid "in Sion" is not a piece of geological material laying somewhere in the Middle East. It's a spiritual metaphor of a deeper reality. And I (personally) believe that Sion means man's heart. Christ is there, and to be found only there. No holy land tour will show you that.
Jerusalem is the same thing. A spiritual indicator. Jacob is another good example. God is not concerned with one individual named Jacob who lived long ago. He is a spiritual metaphor or "type" relating a real element of man, God's creation. The "earth" refers to man in (a carnal sense). "Thy will be done "in earth" is not about a planet called earth. It is about man. Nothing more.
Taking a long look at modern Israelites, it's hard to imagine how God can call Himself "holy" and "love" and still associate with Israelites...
In a nutshell: God is not interested in real estate, and He doesn't play favorites.
Aisi, of course..
Blessings,
brian
Brian...It is not spiritual...It is historical...You twist the Scriptures to your own destruction...And Hawyaw made a promise to the Pariarchs and will not default on that...
If that were true, then Jesus could have warned people while he was here talking to them face to face. He could have said that He would die and rise again and if people didn't believe it they would burn forever, but He didn't. He spent His time with things like the sermon on the mount, and telling people to love God and each other. NOWHERE IN THE BIBLE does it say to go "warn" people of the "good news."
It is an unscriptural myth that salvation cannot occur after death.
IMO, this proves you wrong.
God will have (wants if you like) all men to be saved (1 Timothy 2:4)
It is God’s “pleasure” that all mankind be saved.
And “God is operating all in accord with the counsel of His will” (Ephesians 1:11).
Change it to read “in accord with the counsel of what He wants if you like.
Because God says
"My counsel shall stand. I will do all my pleasure
(the saving of all mankind is part of the pleasure that God wants)
Yea I have spoken it.
I will also bring it to pass.
I have purposed it.
I will also do it."
Isaiah 46:10,11
Job 23:13 “But he stands alone, and who can oppose Him? He does whatever he pleases.
(the saving of all mankind is part of what He wants that pleases Him).
Isaiah 55:11 so is my word that goes out from my mouth:
It will not return to me empty, but will accomplish what I desire
and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.
(the saving of all mankind is part of all of which God desires or wants)
So we see God does all His pleasure, He does whatever He pleases, and His word accomplishes that which He desires.
His pleasure, that which He desires and pleases Him is what He wants.
His will = What He wants
What does He want?
THE SALVATION OF ALL MANKIND
Why will it happen? Because God Himself will see to it that it gets done.
Any cooperation towards our salvation is the result, not the cause of God laying hold on us by His saving grace and causing Jesus to be "choice" in our heart, just like it was in the case of Lydia and Saul of Tarsus.
The opinions of exactly how God will achieve universal salvation may differ from UR to UR just like, as Bright Hope pointed out, the opinions of ETers also vary from person to person about what the Bible teaches about salvation.
I already answered your BS on that..I am not going to do it again...It does not matter how many times you OCD your posts...It is not going to make it true...Sorry...Just because you had a nervus breakdown because you counld not handle who Hawyaw really is does not make what you say true...You either accept Hawyaw's attributes as they are portrayed in the OT or you reject it as you have and fashion a god of your own making...It is your choice...Just because you believe in the Easte Bunny does not make him real...You will not see him hopping down the bunny trail anytime soon...
After all you said in your last post, this still remains true.
It really does come down to which scholars you choose to rely on.
That is why the ET/UR debate will always get bogged down in a hopeless deadlock ending in a stalemate, with each side choosing their preferred Greek scholars.
Everyone will choose to believe whatever they are convinced is the truth about what the Bible teaches. I post on forums to give people an alternate point of view. Had I known that one existed I never would have had a horrific twelve year nervous breakdown 1966-78 over my inability to love a god who would allow anyone actually prefer to suffer forever rather than eventually reach out for the salvation that God has provided. I'm 73 years old now.
THE FOLLOWING HAS, AND ALWAYS WILL BE TRUE REGARDING THE DEBATE ABOUT ETERNAL TORMENT
The argument about “eternal hell” nearly always gets bogged down with the words, “My Greek scholars are more reliable than your Greek scholars,” and the result is nearly always a stalemate.
My Greek scholars are Louis Abbott and the many Greek scholars he quotes in chapters three and twelve.
AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS An Analytical Study of Words
If you think it glorifies God more to let some of His creatures suffer forever, or annihilate them, then you keep believing that.
But if you think it glorifies God more to eventually meet everyone on the level of their greatest and deepest need which is a change in their stubborn will, then know that there is plenty of evidence in the Bible that is exactly what God is like.
That's your problem...You rely on other scholars...I do not...You rely on man to tell you what you want...I do not...I accept whatever the Bible tells me no matter how distatful it may seem from my human point of view...You have made a god to your own liking...
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God will have all men to be saved
