The Final ET/UR Showdown (Apostle Paul, repentance, doctrine, Messiah)
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That's your problem...You rely on other scholars...I do not...
So you are saying that it wasn't scholars who translated the KJV and similar versions. That would explain why they got it so wrong!
Greek scholar William Barclay wrote concerning kolasis aionion (age-during corrective chastisement) in Matthew 25:46
"The Greek word for punishment is kolasis. There is no instance in Greek secular literature where kolasis does not mean remedial punishment. It is a simple fact that in Greek kolasis always means remedial punishment. God's punishment is always for man's cure."
See what other Greek scholars say about it too.
AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS Chapter Eleven
Fifteen literally translated (not interpretively translated) Bibles that reveal what God will do with the sinners in Matthew 25:46
Concordant Literal, Young’s literal, Wilson’s Emphatic Diaglott, Rotherham’s Emphasized, Scarlett’s, J.W. Hanson’s New Covenant, Twentieth Century, Ferrar Fenton, The Western New Testament, Weymouth’s (unedited), Clementson’s, The New Testament of our Lord and Savior Jesus Anointed, The Restoration of Original Sacred Name Bible, Bullinger’s Companion Bible margins, Jonathan Mitchell’s translation (2010).
Regarding the meaning of aionios, many Greek scholars agree with John Wesley Hanson. AIÓN – AIÓNIOS AIN -- AINIOS
the reason why His Father sent Him, to be the Saviour of the world
CALVINIST ET BELIEF - It's as if God says
"Since there is nothing you can do about it because you are totally depraved and you are not one of the elect, it is obvious that I created most of you for the purpose of torturing you forever. However, I am going to choose a few of you to go to heaven where you will be happy forever."
Christ's apparent mission: To let everyone suffer eternal torment without any say in the matter, except for the few He rescues by His irresistible grace.
UNIVERSAL RECONCILIATION BELIEF (mine) – It’s as if God says
“Because of what Christ accomplished by His death and resurrection, sooner or later, I am going to save all of you from everything from which you need to be saved, including your stubborn will.”
Christ's scriptural mission: 'And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world' (1John 4:14).
I worship a Jesus Who will be completely successful in accomplishing the reason why His Father sent Him, to be the Saviour of the world.
Christ was prophesied to take away the sin of the world (Jn. 1:29), so how then can a sinless world suffer everlasting punishment in the lake of fire?! How absurd! Christ is the Saviour of the world (Jn. 4:42; 1Jn. 4:14), and He will save it!"
Last edited by rodgertutt; 10-18-2011 at 01:57 AM..
the inconsistency of the Calvinist interpretation of Scripture
A snippet from 125 NUTS FOR CALVINISTS TO CRACK – C.R. Bierbower
(another book in my hard copy UR library)
“Although a Calvinist myself for more than thirty years, the scriptures declaring God’s infinite love, and the plain teachings of Jesus my Lord on the subject of love, mercy and truth, finally sank my theological ship. This left me searching for the truth as it is in Jesus.
Finally I was convinced by the overwhelming number of Scriptures that our great God and Heavenly Father truly does, without partiality, love the whole world, and He will in His own time and in His own way finally reconcile all men unto Himself.
Arminianism and Calvinism both represent each other as the method for God’s work in salvation, and both vigorously reject the final reconciliation of all men. It is my purpose in this book to point out to my Calvinistic brethren the inconsistency of their interpretation of Scripture.”
And, IMO, C.R. does a very good job of pointing out the inconsistency of the Calvinist interpretation of Scripture.”
Brian...It is not spiritual...It is historical...You twist the Scriptures to your own destruction...And Hawyaw made a promise to the Pariarchs and will not default on that...
God already owns everything, so no need for a piece of land in the ME. And again: He does not play favorites with anyone. No special promises, no special treatments or "getting in without Jesus." The promises He has made are to all people everywhere, and that is that He will restore all that was taken from Adam. No twisting scriptures, no destruction, just restoration of all things to God. It has been His plan from the foundation of the world.
You can say wants all you like...You and I both know that you wish it was written in the Greek with the future tense of save (will save)...When in fact it doesn't...It is thelei, wants or desires...And the fact that the author was speaking to a specific audience...
"For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all mankind to be saved, and come to a knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself as a ransom for all mankind to be testified in due time."
"Who will have"= thelo=
To intend. To purpose.
To will. To have in mind.
To be resolved and determined.
-Dr. Marvin Vincent-
Who will have all men to be saved (ov pantav anqrwpouv qelei swqhnai).
Literally, who willeth all men, etc. As who, or seeing that he, giving the ground of the previous statement. Prayer to God for all is acceptable to him, because he wills the salvation of all.
Qelei willeth, marking a determinate purpose.
"oV pantaV anqrwpouV qelei swqhnai kai eiV epignwsin alhqeiaV elqein"
If that were true, then Jesus could have warned people while he was here talking to them face to face. He could have said that He would die and rise again and if people didn't believe it they would burn forever, but He didn't. He spent His time with things like the sermon on the mount, and telling people to love God and each other. NOWHERE IN THE BIBLE does it say to go "warn" people of the "good news."
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965
Ah...Yea...He did...
You know that's not true or you would have quoted the scripture instead of making a lame comment. Feel free to quote Jesus saying that He would die and rise again and if people didn't believe it they would burn forever. NO parables or metaphors that can be interpreted in many different ways.
God already owns everything, so no need for a piece of land in the ME. And again: He does not play favorites with anyone. No special promises, no special treatments or "getting in without Jesus." The promises He has made are to all people everywhere, and that is that He will restore all that was taken from Adam. No twisting scriptures, no destruction, just restoration of all things to God. It has been His plan from the foundation of the world.
Blessings,
brian
Why don't you just give me specific Scriptures that state that regarding Adam...
"For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all mankind to be saved, and come to a knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself as a ransom for all mankind to be testified in due time."
"Who will have"= thelo=
To intend. To purpose.
To will. To have in mind.
To be resolved and determined.
-Dr. Marvin Vincent-
Who will have all men to be saved (ov pantav anqrwpouv qelei swqhnai).
Literally, who willeth all men, etc. As who, or seeing that he, giving the ground of the previous statement. Prayer to God for all is acceptable to him, because he wills the salvation of all.
Qelei willeth, marking a determinate purpose.
"oV pantaV anqrwpouV qelei swqhnai kai eiV epignwsin alhqeiaV elqein"
Sorry...But the Greek word in the original is 'thelei', which means 'wants, desires'...This would be a better word to use
G1011
βουλεύω
bouleuō
bool-yoo'-o
From G1012; to advise, that is, (reflexively) deliberate, or (by implication) resolve: - consult, take counsel, determine, be minded, purpose.
Or even this:
G2307
θέλημα
thelēma
thel'-ay-mah
From the prolonged form of G2309; a determination (properly the thing), that is, (actively) choice (specifically purpose, decree; abstractly volition) or (passively) inclination: - desire, pleasure, will.
Here is another good one:
G4400
προχειρίζομαι
procheirizomai
prokh-i-rid'-zom-ahee
Middle voice from G4253 and a derivative of G5495; to handle for oneself in advance, that is, (figuratively) to purpose: - choose, make.
However, this is the word that is actually used in the Greek Letter:
G2309
θέλω, ἐθέλω
thelō ethelō
thel'-o, eth-el'-o
Either the first or the second form may be used. In certain tenses θελέω theleō thel-eh'-o (and εθέλέω etheleō eth-el-eh'-o) are used, which are otherwise obsolete; apparently strengthened from the alternate form of G138; to determine (as an active voice option from subjective impulse; whereas G1014 properly denotes rather a passive voice acquiescence in objective considerations), that is, choose or prefer (literally or figuratively); by implication to wish, that is, be inclined to (sometimes adverbially gladly); impersonally for the future tense, to be about to; by Hebraism to delight in: - desire, be disposed (forward), intend, list, love, mean, please, have rather, (be) will (have, -ling, -ling [ly]).
Let's add the fact that the Letter was TO Believers ABOUT Believers...
Sorry...But the Greek word in the original is 'thelei', which means 'wants, desires'...This would be a better word to use
G1011
βουλεύω
bouleuō
bool-yoo'-o
From G1012; to advise, that is, (reflexively) deliberate, or (by implication) resolve: - consult, take counsel, determine, be minded, purpose.
Or even this:
G2307
θέλημα
thelēma
thel'-ay-mah
From the prolonged form of G2309; a determination (properly the thing), that is, (actively) choice (specifically purpose, decree; abstractly volition) or (passively) inclination: - desire, pleasure, will.
Here is another good one:
G4400
προχειρίζομαι
procheirizomai
prokh-i-rid'-zom-ahee
Middle voice from G4253 and a derivative of G5495; to handle for oneself in advance, that is, (figuratively) to purpose: - choose, make.
However, this is the word that is actually used in the Greek Letter:
G2309
θέλω, ἐθέλω
thelō ethelō
thel'-o, eth-el'-o
Either the first or the second form may be used. In certain tenses θελέω theleō thel-eh'-o (and εθέλέω etheleō eth-el-eh'-o) are used, which are otherwise obsolete; apparently strengthened from the alternate form of G138; to determine (as an active voice option from subjective impulse; whereas G1014 properly denotes rather a passive voice acquiescence in objective considerations), that is, choose or prefer (literally or figuratively); by implication to wish, that is, be inclined to (sometimes adverbially gladly); impersonally for the future tense, to be about to; by Hebraism to delight in: - desire, be disposed (forward), intend, list, love, mean, please, have rather, (be) will (have, -ling, -ling [ly]).
Let's add the fact that the Letter was TO Believers ABOUT Believers...
Thelo is well documented to imply a determination as opposed to just a well thought out wish.
Desire can be applied indirectly since the act of determination is usually accompanied by desire. But thelo cannot properly be used as a passive wish or just a simple desire.
If thelo is applied to man, mans power to determine to accomplish what he desires is limited. When applied to God, we can know that when God is determined to accomplish something that is his to accomplish, there is no doubt that it will be done.
As far as a passage in scripture being written to believers. That does not change what God is determined to do. The belief of any individual at any given time is irrelevant to whether there is a truth to what God will do.
If God does exist, his existance is not dependant upon the beliefs of anyone. So if God is determined to Save all mankind as the passage indicates he is and that it is good and acceptable in his sight to do so, then if at any given time someone does not believe that, nothing will change concerning it.
Gods determination is not driven by who believes. Believers made aware of something brings knowledge and they can pass on that knowledge to unbelievers and be a part of what God is going to do.
Let's add the fact that the Letter was TO Believers ABOUT Believers...
So you think that means that God DOESN'T want everyone to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth?
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the reason why His Father sent Him, to be the Saviour of the world
