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You can deny Jesus already came, but that does not change the meaning of the verse. The bottom line is that the OT authors knew of the coming Messiah.
Oh I don't deny Jesus was here. I believe Jesus existed and was a prophet in the Jews' meaning of what a prophet was, and that Jesus believed he was the Jewish messiah, until he died without the prophecies being fulfilled, of course.
Yes, the OT knew of the coming messiah, and still know of the coming messiah. I am fully in agreement with you on that. You will get no argument from me on this point. The meaning of the verse isn't changed. The OT knew of the coming messiah and the Jews still know of the coming messiah. I am not deflecting that point and in fact am 100% in agreement with it.
Well if that is the case you can find and know him . For Jesus taught to seek after him and you will find him, he also taught that the kingdom of God is within, so I would say seeking him within is a very good place to look.
Spin off religion ?
Totally agree that Jesus taught people to seek God. Re: the bolded: Christianity isn't a spinoff of Judaism?
Totally agree that Jesus taught people to seek God. Re: the bolded: Christianity isn't a spinoff of Judaism?
Yes and no. For me Jesus didnt come to start a new religion, he came that we might know God through him, and we cannot tabernacle God into a religion, He tabernacles us.
Yes and no. For me Jesus didnt come to start a new religion, he came that we might know God through him, and we cannot tabernacle God into a religion, He tabernacles us.
Agree. Jesus did not come to start a new religion. He came in hopes of fulfilling the Jewish messianic prophecies. He did not but in Jewish tradition and as specified in the Torah, Jesus will be of human birth so it would not have been so outlandish for Jesus to have thought he might be the one.
Paul is the one who came to start a new religion, having never met Jesus. So the whole premise of "Christianity" based on this makes it flawed in your own assessment of God ("We cannot tabernacle God into a religion, He tabernacles us").
Well if that is the case you can find and know him . For Jesus taught to seek after him and you will find him, he also taught that the kingdom of God is within, so I would say seeking him within is a very good place to look.
Ah, so one must seek. I agree. One must also choose the narrow gate.
He died because of our sins and because we were unable to do what He did because of our sinful nature. Christ was needed from the beginning because we were incapable of what He did . . . but one of us humans HAD to or our species would have eternally been separated from God. There was no payment or punishment required . . . just substituting for our deficiencies. The barbaric punishment was inflicted by our ignorant savage ancestors because "they knew not what they were doing" and could not accept the God He revealed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JerZ
This right here, the bolded, has NEVER made sense to me, even when I was a small child. God caused that problem. God created people to be imperfect. If He wanted people to be perfect He could have just made them perfect. No "sacrifice" needed.
Of course, there's the old "But God doesn't want robots, He wants people to choose" argument. If God doesn't want "robots" (perfect people), why does He repeatedly assert that He does in the Bible (the many, many laws in the Torah, and then the constant admonishment of people's actions by Jesus), and why did he go so far as to create a son and have the son killed in order to accomplish this goal (remove "sin" -- i.e. imperfection)? And why does the punishment for not accepting the unneeded sacrifice range from "eternal separation from Him" to the "cleansing" fires of Purgatory to roasting over the flames of hell for literally an eternity? Obviously God DOES want perfect, according to the Bible. Robotic or not. Yet he created the problem. Makes zero sense.
In the bolded belief above, God caused a problem, then fixed that problem much later after much suffering. That's like punching someone in the eye, stealing all the ice packs on earth and then handing one ice pack to the person you've just punched and saying, "Here. I'm healing you. You can accept it from me, or you can do without and suffer on and on. You should be grateful."
Here's how the problem could have been "fixed": just don't punch the person in the eye in the first place. Otherwise, it's a setup and very strange and savage.
Your criticisms are well-taken, JerZ. I wrestled with them for quite a while during my quest to explain God to my intellect. I had to eliminate all preconceptions about God and use only what we actually know about reality as the basis for explaining what exists. There is little point in bemoaning what God does or does not do based on human expectations about what God SHOULD or MUST be capable of. It is clear from all the evidence we have that evolution is the method God employs (we have no idea whether or not this is willful or simply structural). We also know that maturation is the method all life employs (same question). This necessitates a two-fold process . . . evolution of the underlying species capabilities and individual maturation sequences during each lifetime at each evolutionary stage. This suggests that our species had to evolve its spiritual capabilities and that the maturation processes within each stage had to be governed by processes conducive to the desired outcomes.
We are all ultimately dust (stardust) no matter what stage of evolution we manifest . . . so it is not hard to imagine that the original "living soul" was "breathed" into an existing hominid species that had evolved the rudimentary characteristics necessary to house a Spirit. These rudimentary characteristics need not be (and obviously were not) sufficient for the newly born "Spirit" to overpower the animal drives and instincts that were fully developed and operational. It would be necessary for evolution to select for the capabilities of self-control and for each stage to institute cultural and societal processes to enhance the maturation of their use. In short . . . Christ had to be evolved and matured along with our entire species before He could manifest. That is what He referred to as the "fields ripe for the harvest" at the time of Christ. We should have advanced significantly farther by now . . . but for the retained ancient ignorance and superstitions of the religions that followed Christ.
I would like to point out that the "ignorant and savage" comment was never intended to apply to all of the perceptions recorded in the OT any more than the idea of inspiration ("god breathed" was a Greek term for inspiration by the Muses and was never understood to mean literally spoken by a god) would apply to all of the perceptions recorded.
For me, one of the best perceptions recorded was from one of the more bloody of the biblical characters, so even the most savage might be touched by inspirations from Psalms 51 "16For You do not delight in sacrifice, otherwise I would give it;
You are not pleased with burnt offering.
17The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit;
A broken and a contrite heart, O God, You will not despise."
I would like to point out that the "ignorant and savage" comment was never intended to apply to all of the perceptions recorded in the OT any more than the idea of inspiration ("god breathed" was a Greek term for inspiration by the Muses and was never understood to mean literally spoken by a god) would apply to all of the perceptions recorded.
The "all-or-nothing" types here will simply NOT accept such a knowledgeable, reasonable and rational approach, nateswift.
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