How many works or 'works of Christ' does it take to save us? (Torah, testimony)
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Another good question, Pleroo. Since the two are opposite sides of the same coin, I don't believe either "produces" the other. That is the thought of those who believe in faith alone, that one produces the other. I believe they produce one another. I cannot claim to have faith without good works and neither can I claim to have "Godly" good works without faith. To me they are indivisible.
To use Luther's "fire" example, the moment the fire is lit there is both light and heat--the works of fire. But enough light and heat applied with great intensity, there is instantaneous fire. And I'm not denigrating Luther's teaching, since he was definitely concerned with grace as a product of faith. But he has provided such a profitable illustration that it is useful to point out that speaking of either faith or works outside the other is unprofitable for one who claims to be a Christian. When the fire goes out, so does the heat and light. With heat and light absent, there is no fire.
Show me one who has Faith without works and I would hold that Christ is not in that person. Show me one who does the work of Christ but has no Faith in Him, and I would hold that Christ is not in that person. On a purely human level, however, the works of Christ absent faith produce greater good in society than faith in Christ which uses it as justification to do evil work as George Sodini did.
Another couple of questions then, Warden, if you don't mind. Do you believe the "fire is lit" by the will of God, or by the will of the person, or both?
And, regarding the idea that a person may do the work of Christ without having "Christ in them", consider, "He who loves IS born of God, and KNOWS God," per 1 John. How do you reconcile that?
Another couple of questions then, Warden, if you don't mind. Do you believe the "fire is lit" by the will of God, or by the will of the person, or both?
And, regarding the idea that a person may do the work of Christ without having "Christ in them", consider, "He who loves IS born of God, and KNOWS God," per 1 John. How do you reconcile that?
2 Cor 4:6 For God Who said, Let light shine out of darkness, has shone in our hearts so as [to beam forth] the Light for the illumination of the knowledge of the majesty and glory of God [as it is manifest in the Person and is revealed] in the face of Jesus Christ (the Messiah).
It is interesting where God reveals Jesus Christ to us. I have no doubt that it is God who illuminates us and quickens us. I also believe that God does not reject good works or scorns upon them whether they are by those who are believe or those don't. I cannot think for the life of me why when someone mentions good works, evangelicals jump all over it and judge the motive as being to earn something. They've obviously not settled something in their own hearts.
Store up for yourselves treasure in heaven( heaven is in my innermost being*), so like the.......The good man, who out of the good treasure of the heart, bringeth forth good things: For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
2 Cor 4:6 For God Who said, Let light shine out of darkness, has shone in our hearts so as [to beam forth] the Light for the illumination of the knowledge of the majesty and glory of God [as it is manifest in the Person and is revealed] in the face of Jesus Christ (the Messiah).
It is interesting where God reveals Jesus Christ to us. I have no doubt that it is God who illuminates us and quickens us. I also believe that God does not reject good works or scorns upon them whether they are by those who are believe or those don't. I cannot think for the life of me why when someone mentions good works, evangelicals jump all over it and judge the motive as being to earn something. They've obviously not settled something in their own hearts.
Store up for yourselves treasure in heaven( heaven is in my innermost being*), so like the.......The good man, who out of the good treasure of the heart, bringeth forth good things: For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
Heaven*
As I see it too, pcamps. If a person is acting out of love in any situation, that is the light of God shining out of the darkness, whether the person yet recognizes that or not.
As I see it too, pcamps. If a person is acting out of love in any situation, that is the light of God shining out of the darkness, whether the person yet recognizes that or not.
The Good Samaritan story is a good example of this. Someone looked down upon by those who think they are the chosen ones, the Light of God shone through him.
Another couple of questions then, Warden, if you don't mind. Do you believe the "fire is lit" by the will of God, or by the will of the person, or both?
And, regarding the idea that a person may do the work of Christ without having "Christ in them", consider, "He who loves IS born of God, and KNOWS God," per 1 John. How do you reconcile that?
Ah, I see where you are going with this, Pleroo! I do believe in free will to accept and free will to reject. I do not believe free will disappears at the moment one accepts Christ as Savior, which is what the OSAS crowd believes. If that were true, free will becomes conditional and, imo, less meaningful. God loves a cheerful giver (of his life), so to speak.
But reading a single verse from I John 4:16 leaves many of the other verses in the same letter displaced. At the end of chapter 3, John writes, "Those who obey his commands live in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us." Then he spends time at the beginning of chapter 4 describing how to recognize the Spirit of Truth from the spirit of falsehood.
But no work of good done outside of the grace of God counts even as "duty" of the sinner. Neither does "faith" outside the grace of God, count as repentance and a changed life.
I hope you and pcamps are correct, that a constant spirit of love within an individual is the defining revelation for being in Christ's fold. It's actually pretty much what Mother Theresa held as well, and it's difficult to even attempt to stand in opposition to one who lived such a Christlike life. I like quoting her just about more than anyone.
Yet reconciling all scripture still leaves me with a picture of God who will ultimately separate goats and sheep, wheat and tares, fruitful trees from unfruitful, obedient from disobedient. I am unable to lift out individual verses and place complete emphasis on them to the exclusion or degradation of others.
But then I am still seeking. Those who have found the answer have in fact, lost it.
I think it is also important to note that if someone is living and loving and seeking as Christ commands, God will send someone to bring a message of salvation to him. (Acts 8:26-39, Phillip and the Ethiopian eunuch).
Last edited by Wardendresden; 08-22-2013 at 02:18 PM..
Reason: added final line
Ah, I see where you are going with this, Pleroo! I do believe in free will to accept and free will to reject. I do not believe free will disappears at the moment one accepts Christ as Savior, which is what the OSAS crowd believes. If that were true, free will becomes conditional and, imo, less meaningful. God loves a cheerful giver (of his life), so to speak.
But reading a single verse from I John 4:16 leaves many of the other verses in the same letter displaced. At the end of chapter 3, John writes, "Those who obey his commands live in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us." Then he spends time at the beginning of chapter 4 describing how to recognize the Spirit of Truth from the spirit of falsehood.
But no work of good done outside of the grace of God counts even as "duty" of the sinner. Neither does "faith" outside the grace of God, count as repentance and a changed life.
I hope you and pcamps are correct, that a constant spirit of love within an individual is the defining revelation for being in Christ's fold. It's actually pretty much what Mother Theresa held as well, and it's difficult to even attempt to stand in opposition to one who lived such a Christlike life. I like quoting her just about more than anyone.
Yet reconciling all scripture still leaves me with a picture of God who will ultimately separate goats and sheep, wheat and tares, fruitful trees from unfruitful, obedient from disobedient. I am unable to lift out individual verses and place complete emphasis on them to the exclusion or degradation of others.
But then I am still seeking. Those who have found the answer have in fact, lost it.
I think it is also important to note that if someone is living and loving as Christ commands, God will send someone to bring a message of salvation to him. (Acts 8:26-39, Phillip and the Ethiopian eunuch).
You give me way more credit that I deserve, Warden. Saying I was going somewhere would imply forethought on my part and I have to admit, there ain't much of that going on in this noggin at the moment. I don't have an agenda. I enjoy many of your posts and I'm just trying to understand, better, where you're coming from and engage you in discussion.
Anyway, I see all "works of good" to be done inside God's grace, because all that is good comes from God. And, just so you know my point of view, I believe that the goat and sheep, wheat and tares, etc. are all things which describe what is within each of us. In other biblical terms, it's the difference between our old man and our new man, or between walking in the flesh as opposed to walking in the spirit. It's all about the conflict within each person, not about separating humans into different groups.
And last, I believe the message of salvation is not so difficult as Christians tend to make it. I believe that the "good news" is that God, based on his/her very nature, is not holding our sins against us; God is for us, not against us. So we can stop groveling and worrying that we've offended God and must make up for it somehow to get back into God's "good graces" ... because we were never out of God's grace. We're free, then, to get on with the purpose of learning to love each other for the sake of love itself, and not out of fear that God will punish us, or discard us as garbage, if we don't.
In my time of posting in this forum I have noticed there are those who defend a works based approach to salvation even when presented with overwhelming scripture that says otherwise. It is clear to me that those who believe this are content and feel secure in their belief. You make it clear that it is not our works or good deeds that save us but the "works of Christ" in and through us that inevitably result in salvation. With that being said, I would like to ask a question to those of you who hold on to this belief.
How many works or 'works of Christ' does it take to save us?
Even though I have said time and time again that unbelievers are slave to a condition called sin, (not sin the verb, but sin the noun), those of you who do not believe we are saved by grace through faith in the finished work of Christ alone still speak out against what you often call (easy salvation). Well let me just say I don't think it was an easy thing for Jesus to endure what He did on the cross and the bible says He suffered that death for us. In the book of Romans the word "sin" is mentioned 38 times as a noun. That is referring to an actual thing, not an action. Everyone that is born into this world is a slave of sin (noun). No matter how many good things you do, those good deeds can never transfer you into the (noun) righteous state. But now that Jesus has done a prison exchange for us by placing all believers in a condition called righteousness, there is still this idea amongst works based believers that there is still some work to be done. There was something left unfinished at the cross in your eyes. The problem with this thinking is that it makes Adam's sin that condemned us all have more power than the righteous act of obedience Jesus did for us at the cross. When you believe in Jesus and His finished work, He covers you with His righteousness. Nothing you do or don't do can make you any more or less righteous than Jesus has already made you. You're still living in the ways of Cain by still bringing your harvest of fruits (the works of your hands) to God. Those of us who believe in saved by grace are walking in the way of Abel, who brought the sacrifice to God and was shown favor. But like Abel who was attacked and killed for receiving his unearned, undeserved favor from God, we believers in grace salvation are being attacked and trying to be silenced by those who believe otherwise. That should tell you immediately that your belief in works are the wrong approach to God.
With that being said, it seems there are some things that need to be answered by those who do not believe in grace salvation.
What if we die before all of our sin has been "put down in our flesh" as you say?
What if we die before having the right amount of the "works of Christ" in us?
How many "works of Christ" in us and through us does it take to save a soul?
Where is there rest and security if we have unfinished business with God?
I've just read all of the posts which are currently on this thread, and as you have seen Romans, these people do not listen. Legalists likes to boast of their own self-righteousness rather than relying on the imputed righteousness of Christ which is credited to anyone who simply places his faith in Christ. But Ephesian 2:8-9 makes it clear that we are saved by grace through faith, and not by works, so that no man can boast. But legalists want to boast. To take credit for being good enough to earn eternal life.
How many times does the Bible have to say a thing in order for it to be true? Only once. But the Bible states a number of times that works play no part in salvation. That means that eternal life does not depend on works, or in a combination of faith and works. Eternal salvation is by grace which by the Bible's own definition forbids the intrusion of human works.
Rom. 11:6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.
Eternal salvation is through faith.
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you are saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
Faith is simply trusting in the veracity of another. In this case, trusting in Jesus Christ who said it is finished.
Many people also do not understand that while the unbeliever is forever saved from the penalty of sin at the moment of faith alone in Christ alone, and that it is a done deal, as a believer he is saved from the power of sin in his Christian life through the process of experiential sanctification which results from the believer's spiritual growth. And so they merge the two into one with the result that they erroneously think that you have to work, or have a mixture of faith and works in order to be saved. And if you point out to them that Jesus Himself said that it is faith and not works by which one has eternal life (John 6:27-29), they do not comprehend it.
The heresy of Lordship salvation is a form of legalism which takes a back door approach to works based salvation by claiming that if you don't show evidence of works in your life then you were never saved in the first place. But that too would make works a requirement for eternal salvation, and the Bible says 'No' to that. The very first moment you trust in Christ you have been eternally saved. You believe that Christ died on the Cross for your sins, that He paid the penalty for them, with the result that you simply rest in His finished work, and you have eternal life. What you do or don't do with your spiritual life after that does not negate that initial moment in which you were eternally saved.
God's plan, policy, and attitude is one of grace which means that He did everything required in order to be able to offer salvation as a free gift to man. Anyone who accepts the free gift by simply believing on Christ will spend the eternal future with God.
Once having been saved by grace though faith, then the believer should make every effort to pursue spiritual growth which will result in works acceptable to God and which will be rewarded at the judgment seat of Christ. But the spiritual growth or lack thereof of the believer has no bearing on the fact that he is eternally secure.
Legalists of course hate this truth. Legalism always attacks grace, and the legalist can't stand grace teaching.
Legalism existed in the church right from the beginning, and the apostle Paul had to speak out against it. Both the Book of Romans and Galatians attest to this.
"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when you have succeeded, you make them twice as much a child of hell as you are."
I've just read all of the posts which are currently on this thread, and as you have seen Romans, these people do not listen. Legalists likes to boast of their own self-righteousness rather than relying on the imputed righteousness of Christ which is credited to anyone who simply places his faith in Christ. But Ephesian 2:8-9 makes it clear that we are saved by grace through faith, and not by works, so that no man can boast. But legalists want to boast. To take credit for being good enough to earn eternal life.
How many times does the Bible have to say a thing in order for it to be true? Only once. But the Bible states a number of times that works play no part in salvation. That means that eternal life does not depend on works, or in a combination of faith and works. Eternal salvation is by grace which by the Bible's own definition forbids the intrusion of human works.
Rom. 11:6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.
Eternal salvation is through faith.
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you are saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
Faith is simply trusting in the veracity of another. In this case, trusting in Jesus Christ who said it is finished.
Many people also do not understand that while the unbeliever is forever saved from the penalty of sin at the moment of faith alone in Christ alone, and that it is a done deal, as a believer he is saved from the power of sin in his Christian life through the process of experiential sanctification which results from the believer's spiritual growth. And so they merge the two into one with the result that they erroneously think that you have to work, or have a mixture of faith and works in order to be saved. And if you point out to them that Jesus Himself said that it is faith and not works by which one has eternal life (John 6:27-29), they do not comprehend it.
The heresy of Lordship salvation is a form of legalism which takes a back door approach to works based salvation by claiming that if you don't show evidence of works in your life then you were never saved in the first place. But that too would make works a requirement for eternal salvation, and the Bible says 'No' to that. The very first moment you trust in Christ you have been eternally saved. You believe that Christ died on the Cross for your sins, that He paid the penalty for them, with the result that you simply rest in His finished work, and you have eternal life. What you do or don't do with your spiritual life after that does not negate that initial moment in which you were eternally saved.
God's plan, policy, and attitude is one of grace which means that He did everything required in order to be able to offer salvation as a free gift to man. Anyone who accepts the free gift by simply believing on Christ will spend the eternal future with God.
Once having been saved by grace though faith, then the believer should make every effort to pursue spiritual growth which will result in works acceptable to God and which will be rewarded at the judgment seat of Christ. But the spiritual growth or lack thereof of the believer has no bearing on the fact that he is eternally secure.
Legalists of course hate this truth. Legalism always attacks grace, and the legalist can't stand grace teaching.
Legalism existed in the church right from the beginning, and the apostle Paul had to speak out against it. Both the Book of Romans and Galatians attest to this.
Try reading the entire Bible and understanding the exact words for each without discounting some or "explaining" them away, but taking them for what they are. You might find yourself to be a New man.
You give me way more credit that I deserve, Warden. Saying I was going somewhere would imply forethought on my part and I have to admit, there ain't much of that going on in this noggin at the moment. I don't have an agenda. I enjoy many of your posts and I'm just trying to understand, better, where you're coming from and engage you in discussion.
Anyway, I see all "works of good" to be done inside God's grace, because all that is good comes from God. And, just so you know my point of view, I believe that the goat and sheep, wheat and tares, etc. are all things which describe what is within each of us. In other biblical terms, it's the difference between our old man and our new man, or between walking in the flesh as opposed to walking in the spirit. It's all about the conflict within each person, not about separating humans into different groups.
And last, I believe the message of salvation is not so difficult as Christians tend to make it. I believe that the "good news" is that God, based on his/her very nature, is not holding our sins against us; God is for us, not against us. So we can stop groveling and worrying that we've offended God and must make up for it somehow to get back into God's "good graces" ... because we were never out of God's grace. We're free, then, to get on with the purpose of learning to love each other for the sake of love itself, and not out of fear that God will punish us, or discard us as garbage, if we don't.
Aisi.
Well, more and more it appears that for someone to argue with you is akin to arguing with Mother Theresa. And, yes, both the old man and the new pop their heads up within the Christian.
The message of salvation IS very simple, the path however is narrow and demands commitment. This whole thread appears to have be by those who wish to justify Christ without a change or commitment to the lives they lead. I will have to answer to God, and no matter how much "good" I might do, it will never be enough. And no matter how much "faith" I have it will be insufficient in terms of the grace of God. But failure to commit myself to be a SERVANT in virtually all I think or do, regardless of adequacy is the unpardonable sin.
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I don't have an agenda. I enjoy many of your posts and I'm just trying to understand, better, where you're coming from and engage you in discussion.
And, just so you know my point of view, I believe that the goat and sheep, wheat and tares, etc. are all things which describe what is within each of us. In other biblical terms, it's the difference between our old man and our new man, or between walking in the flesh as opposed to walking in the spirit. It's all about the conflict within each person, not about separating humans into different groups. 
