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Learn to discern the professors of salvation from the possessors of salvation before you accuse the grace of God of bringing forth evil in a person's life. The catholic church values their obedience over the obedience of Christ by which we are saved. If you aren't resting in the finished work of Christ then you are working in it and will become a person who perverts grace just as the catholic church does.
I gave you and everyone on the thread a concrete EXAMPLE of false doctrine that had evil consequences in post #117. This person stated he believed as you believe and he used that to justify his atrocities. You either agree that his atrocities are "justified" in the name of your doctrine, or you reject them. The grace of God has nothing to do with the false doctrine you are professing. In fact, proof of its falsity is in how evil people use it for self-justification of their acts.
On the other hand you appear to be accusing an entire denomination of falsity with no concrete example of how that denomination's emphasis on obedience has resulted in evil from any individual because of a mindset of obedience to God. Have you examples of where OBEYING God's commands to love one another, to put our neighbor ahead of ourselves, to provide for the poor and destitute has actually resulted in justification of evil???? Are there evil people in all denominations? Of course, but the evil done is because God's commands were NOT obeyed. I but pointed out the doctrine you profess has become "doctrinal JUSTIFICATION" for evil. You have become angry because there is no response to the question of why God would allow a doctrine to exist which, in effect, divides His house.
But believing one should obey becomes evil while lip profession with self justification to commit evil acts becomes good?
New International Version Isaiah 5:20
Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter.
Proverbs 17:15
Acquitting the guilty and condemning the innocent-- the LORD detests them both.
I think you perhaps would profit from your own words. Perhaps your love for God is in the abstract as opposed to in the concrete? See post# 110
Last edited by Wardendresden; 08-21-2013 at 10:31 PM..
Reason: clarification
I gave you and everyone on the thread a concrete EXAMPLE of false doctrine that had evil consequences in post #117. This person stated he believed as you believe and he used that to justify his atrocities. You either agree that his atrocities are "justified" in the name of your doctrine, or you reject them. The grace of God has nothing to do with the false doctrine you are professing. In fact, proof of its falsity is in how evil people use it for self-justification of their acts.
On the other hand you appear to be accusing an entire denomination of falsity with no concrete example of how that denomination's emphasis on obedience has resulted in evil from any individual because of a mindset of obedience to God. Have you examples of where OBEYING God's commands to love one another, to put our neighbor ahead of ourselves, to provide for the poor and destitute has actually resulted in justification of evil???? Are there evil people in all denominations? Of course, but the evil done is because God's commands were NOT obeyed. I but pointed out the doctrine you profess has become "doctrinal JUSTIFICATION" for evil. You have become angry because there is no response to the question of why God would allow a doctrine to exist which, in effect, divides His house.
But believing one should obey becomes evil while lip profession with self justification to commit evil acts becomes good?
New International Version Isaiah 5:20
Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter.
Proverbs 17:15
Acquitting the guilty and condemning the innocent-- the LORD detests them both.
I think you perhaps would profit from your own words. Perhaps your love for God is in the abstract as opposed to in the concrete? See post# 110
If a person believes as I believe and then feels justified in their sins then that person does not believe as I believe. Every moment in my life that I fail in living a Godly life I feel guilty. Does that sound like simple lip profession to you? There are those who profess they are saved and those who possess salvation. If someone says, "I'm a Christian" and yet receives no rebuke from God for their sins then they are not born again, nor a child of God.
Hebrews 12:5-8 (NIV) And you have forgotten that word of encouragement that addresses you as sons: "My son, do not make light of the Lord's discipline, and do not lose heart when he rebukes you, because the Lord disciplines those he loves, and he punishes everyone he accepts as a son." Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as sons. For what son is not disciplined by his father? If you are not disciplined (and everyone undergoes discipline), then you are illegitimate children and not true sons.
We are saved by grace and by grace alone. This is not something you have by saying it with your lips. Grace is something you receive on the grounds of Jesus' finished work at the cross. That is why the bible calls salvation a free gift from God. You don't work for gifts, you receive them. The Christian life is a life of rest. When you rest in the finished work of Christ you receive all that He died to give you.
My message to religion is not one of anger, but of rebuke.
Last edited by romans519; 08-22-2013 at 12:16 AM..
In my time of posting in this forum I have noticed there are those who defend a works based approach to salvation even when presented with overwhelming scripture that says otherwise. It is clear to me that those who believe this are content and feel secure in their belief. You make it clear that it is not our works or good deeds that save us but the "works of Christ" in and through us that inevitably result in salvation. With that being said, I would like to ask a question to those of you who hold on to this belief.
It's not as black/white as you state.
Lip service come to mind....
It's great, and required, to believe in Jesus. In the Jewish mind believing was very closely connected to act according to it. Simple example. Someone can believe with all his/her heart that theft is wrong. Does that make that person a good person? Hardly, if that person contrary to his/her belief frequently steals.
Fully support Jesus teaching on "love you neighbor" but when "you" find a homeless man in the gutter on the way to a shop ignore the person, even spit on him because that person is to blame being to lazy to work.
That's for me the point where real Jesus followers get separated from all knowing Pharisees that didn't help the wounded man while the Samaritan did. Personally I would give the homeless man a few $. If I fear he will waste it on drugs or booze I might give him some food I have in my shopping bag. Am I condemned now because God assumes I'm trying to buy myself into heaven? Did I reject Jesus' salvation because I actually gave to the poor as He instructed? For me that's what Mat 25:35-40 is all about.
While I'm not denying that faith and bowing before Jesus is required I simple won't/can't ignore the above verses. Neither will I ignore "faith without works is dead"
Dead faith is no faith at all.
So how can you be a God of justice and leave sin unpunished? Jesus took our place, showing God's perfect love and justice.
Luke 23:34 Jesus said, "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing." And they divided up his clothes by casting lots.
a] Did Jesus mean what He said?
b] Was Jesus assuming the Roman had repented from torturing Him an forgave them for that reason?
c] Did Father forgive them as His Son requested?
Justice. Sure. But still Jesus seems to go all the way to apply grace and mercy.
John 14:7 If you had really known me, you would know who my Father is. From now on, you do know him and have seen him!"
Martin Luther, catalyst of the Protestant Reformation
Quote:
Originally Posted by romans519
If a person believes as I believe and then feels justified in their sins then that person does not believe as I believe. Every moment in my life that I fail in living a Godly life I feel guilty. Does that sound like simple lip profession to you? There are those who profess they are saved and those who possess salvation. If someone says, "I'm a Christian" and yet receives no rebuke from God for their sins then they are not born again, nor a child of God.
Hebrews 12:5-8 (NIV) And you have forgotten that word of encouragement that addresses you as sons: "My son, do not make light of the Lord's discipline, and do not lose heart when he rebukes you, because the Lord disciplines those he loves, and he punishes everyone he accepts as a son." Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as sons. For what son is not disciplined by his father? If you are not disciplined (and everyone undergoes discipline), then you are illegitimate children and not true sons.
We are saved by grace and by grace alone. This is not something you have by saying it with your lips. Grace is something you receive on the grounds of Jesus' finished work at the cross. That is why the bible calls salvation a free gift from God. You don't work for gifts, you receive them. The Christian life is a life of rest. When you rest in the finished work of Christ you receive all that He died to give you.
My message to religion is not one of anger, but of rebuke.
Martin Luther was such a believer of faith for salvation that he once called the Epistle of James an "epistle of straw." In fact, Martin Luther's rejection of the premises within James are still a major point of contention within Catholic theological thought--because Catholics canonized James and felt Luther was attempting to take away its "inerrancy", if you will (although that is not the term they use).
But what did Martin Luther, the champion of salvation by grace and grace alone, say about works? In his introduction to the book of Romans he makes powerful statements which reflect what I and others have been stating on this AND other Christian threads:
Quote:
What a living, creative, active powerful thing is faith! It is impossible that faith ever stop doing good. Faith doesn't ask whether good works are to be done, but, before it is asked, it has done them. It is always active. Whoever doesn't do such works is without faith; he gropes and searches about him for faith and good works but doesn't know what faith or good works are. Even so, he chatters on with a great many words about faith and good works.
Faith is a living, unshakeable confidence in God's grace; it is so certain, that someone would die a thousand times for it. This kind of trust in and knowledge of God's grace makes a person joyful, confident, and happy with regard to God and all creatures. This is what the Holy Spirit does by faith. Through faith, a person will do good to everyone without coercion, willingly and happily; he will serve everyone, suffer everything for the love and praise of God, who has shown him such grace.
It is as impossible to separate works from faith as burning and shining from fire. Therefore be on guard against your own false ideas and against the chatterers who think they are clever enough to make judgements about faith and good works but who are in reality the biggest fools. Ask God to work faith in you; otherwise you will remain eternally without faith, no matter what you try to do or fabricate.
Martin Luther (1483-1546), Preface to the Letter of St. Paul to the Romans
Again and again you repeat an argument which has been denied from the beginning. That those who see works as a part of faith believe works is the method to get into heaven. Faith and Works are two sides of the same coin--as even the Great Reformationist saw. Separating works from faith is like separating heat and light from fire. It simply is impossible. Martin Luther would roll over in his grave to hear someone say that works are separate from faith in God, because to him faith BECAME works for God.
Salvation is an ongoing process, but in order to "make it fit" with the doctrine of faith alone and OSAS, those that follow such doctrine have turned salvation into stages. Such stages were never present in the minds of Jews before Christ or even early Christians. Instead they saw and wrote about a progressing salvation. Even the Scriptures say that we have been saved (Eph. 2:8), are being saved (1 Cor. 1:18), and will be saved (Rom. 5:9). Which is it?
A doctrine that does not plainly speak needs fallible people to make arguments that explain away the tenses which are clearly present in the Scripture. They bring in words like sanctification and justification when the author, Paul, the one pointed to consistently by holders of grace alone, did not chose to use such words.
As Clear Lens, on another thread, "clearly" pointed out, none of the earliest Christians believed in separation of faith and works. They were one and the same. It is modernistic society, infused with a spirit that tells people they can be "saved" without making a change to their lives, without taking up their cross and following Christ, without providing heat and light from the fire they claim they have, which has won the hearts of most of Protestant Christianity. And I, personally have seen the change in the voices from the pulpit from the time I was a young man until now in my old age.
If there is no distinction in fact between simply having faith, and having a living faith that works, why did Jesus spend so much time speaking about the fruit of the spirit? When people came to Him saying they wanted to follow Him but needed time to bury their dead, marry a wife, say goodbye to family, why didn't He just say, "Fall on your knees, accept me as Lord, and your faith is sufficient?" He didn't. He said there is an expectation of service that is pressing and it is now and it is all consuming.
Are there people that believe this false doctrine but are saved and show such salvation with the lives they lead? Of course. I pray God you are one. But if you believe a doctrine that makes allowances for some who may, after hearing the faith and receiving it with great joy allow the cares of the world to snatch it away from them but still remain in the bosom of Christ, then you likewise perpetuate a belief that says a divided House can stand, when Jesus said it cannot.
Last edited by Wardendresden; 08-22-2013 at 09:14 AM..
Reason: formatting
Martin Luther was such a believer of faith for salvation that he once called the Epistle of James an "epistle of straw." In fact, Martin Luther's rejection of the premises within James are still a major point of contention within Catholic theological thought--because Catholics canonized James and felt Luther was attempting to take away its "inerrancy", if you will (although that is not the term they use).
But what did Martin Luther, the champion of salvation by grace and grace alone, say about works? In his introduction to the book of Romans he makes powerful statements which reflect what I and others have been stating on this AND other Christian threads:
Martin Luther (1483-1546), Preface to the Letter of St. Paul to the Romans
Again and again you repeat an argument which has been denied from the beginning. That those who see works as a part of faith believe works is the method to get into heaven. Faith and Works are two sides of the same coin--as even the Great Reformationist saw. Separating works from faith is like separating heat and light from fire. It simply is impossible. Martin Luther would roll over in his grave to hear someone say that works are separate from faith in God, because to him faith BECAME works for God.
Salvation is an ongoing process, but in order to "make it fit" with the doctrine of faith alone and OSAS, those that follow such doctrine have turned salvation into stages. Such stages were never present in the minds of Jews before Christ or even early Christians. Instead they saw and wrote about a progressing salvation. Even the Scriptures say that we have been saved (Eph. 2:8), are being saved (1 Cor. 1:18), and will be saved (Rom. 5:9). Which is it?
A doctrine that does not plainly speak needs fallible people to make arguments that explain away the tenses which are clearly present in the Scripture. They bring in words like sanctification and justification when the author, Paul, the one pointed to consistently by holders of grace alone, did not chose to use such words.
As Clear Lens, on another thread, "clearly" pointed out, none of the earliest Christians believed in separation of faith and works. They were one and the same. It is modernistic society, infused with a spirit that tells people they can be "saved" without making a change to their lives, without taking up their cross and following Christ, without providing heat and light from the fire they claim they have, which has won the hearts of most of Protestant Christianity. And I, personally have seen the change in the voices from the pulpit from the time I was a young man until now in my old age.
If there is no distinction in fact between simply having faith, and having a living faith that works, why did Jesus spend so much time speaking about the fruit of the spirit? When people came to Him saying they wanted to follow Him but needed time to bury their dead, marry a wife, say goodbye to family, why didn't He just say, "Fall on your knees, accept me as Lord, and your faith is sufficient?" He didn't. He said there is an expectation of service that is pressing and it is now and it is all consuming.
Are there people that believe this false doctrine but are saved and show such salvation with the lives they lead? Of course. I pray God you are one. But if you believe a doctrine that makes allowances for some who may, after hearing the faith and receiving it with great joy allow the cares of the world to snatch it away from them but still remain in the bosom of Christ, then you likewise perpetuate a belief that says a divided House can stand, when Jesus said it cannot.
And it should be stated that Martin Luther in the latter years did grow in his understanding which then reflected differently than what he wrote about in the early years.
Luther came from works based emphasis then faith theology such like what you're subscribing to ...
to a by grace alone, by faith alone, by scripture alone based which shows itself in works emphasis which scriptures teaches.
Works then faith emphasis like Catholicism (and what you're subscribing to) is in a sense like making Jesus a co-Savior along with oneself.
Such an attempt is like the promoting of drinking water with arsenic in it.
The more Luther got away from Catholicism's "water with arsenic", the more he began to understand and appreciate by grace alone, by faith alone, by scripture alone.
That however doesn't mean that works based emphasis (the equivalent to drinking "water with arsenic") has no tentacles or life long adverse side effects despite realizing as Luther did just how
unscriptural that is. Luther by no means is a perfect person. His struggled with the Book of James was because of the arsenic .. not because James teaches salvation by a combination of works and faith.
The letter of James must be properly understood that he was writing from the perspective of the foundation of by grace through faith is a given.
Warden, a question for you: Do you believe faith produces works, or do you believe that works produce faith?
Forgive me if you've already made your stance on that clear.
Another good question, Pleroo. Since the two are opposite sides of the same coin, I don't believe either "produces" the other. That is the thought of those who believe in faith alone, that one produces the other. I believe they produce one another. I cannot claim to have faith without good works and neither can I claim to have "Godly" good works without faith. To me they are indivisible.
To use Luther's "fire" example, the moment the fire is lit there is both light and heat--the works of fire. But enough light and heat applied with great intensity, there is instantaneous fire. And I'm not denigrating Luther's teaching, since he was definitely concerned with grace as a product of faith. But he has provided such a profitable illustration that it is useful to point out that speaking of either faith or works outside the other is unprofitable for one who claims to be a Christian. When the fire goes out, so does the heat and light. With heat and light absent, there is no fire.
Show me one who has Faith without works and I would hold that Christ is not in that person. Show me one who does the work of Christ but has no Faith in Him, and I would hold that Christ is not in that person. On a purely human level, however, the works of Christ absent faith produce greater good in society than faith in Christ which uses it as justification to do evil work as George Sodini did.
And it should be stated that Martin Luther in the latter years did grow in his understanding which then reflected differently than what he wrote about in the early years.
Luther came from works based emphasis then faith theology such like what you're subscribing to ...
to a by grace alone, by faith alone, by scripture alone based which shows itself in works emphasis which scriptures teaches.
Works then faith emphasis like Catholicism (and what you're subscribing to) is in a sense like making Jesus a co-Savior along with oneself.
Such an attempt is like the promoting of drinking water with arsenic in it.
The more Luther got away from Catholicism's "water with arsenic", the more he began to understand and appreciate by grace alone, by faith alone, by scripture alone.
That however doesn't mean that works based emphasis (the equivalent to drinking "water with arsenic") has no tentacles or life long adverse side effects despite realizing as Luther did just how
unscriptural that is. Luther by no means is a perfect person. His struggled with the Book of James was because of the arsenic .. not because James teaches salvation by a combination of works and faith.
The letter of James must be properly understood that he was writing from the perspective of the foundation of by grace through faith is a given.
Within that same Introduction of the Letter of St. Paul to the Romans, Luther also writes:
Quote:
In chapter 7, St. Paul says, "The law is spiritual." What does that mean? If the law were physical, then it could be satisfied by works, but since it is spiritual, no one can satisfy it unless everything he does springs from the depths of the heart. But no one can give such a heart except the Spirit of God, who makes the person be like the law, so that he actually conceives a heartfelt longing for the law and henceforward does everything, not through fear or coercion, but from a free heart. Such a law is spiritual since it can only be loved and fulfilled by such a heart and such a spirit.If the Spirit is not in the heart, then there remain sin, aversion andenmity against the law, which in itself is good, just and holy.
You must get used to the idea that it is one thing to do the works of the law and quite another to fulfill it. The works of the law are every thing that a person does or can do of his own free will and by his own powers to obey the law. But because in doing such works the heart abhors the law and yet is forced to obey it, the works are a total loss and are completely useless. That is what St. Paul means in chapter 3 when he says, "No human being is justified before God through the works of the law." From this you can see that the schoolmasters [i.e., the scholastic theologians] and sophists are seducers when they teach that you can prepare yourself for grace by means of works. How can anybody prepare himself for good by means of works if he does no good work except with aversion and constraint in his heart? How can such a work please God, if it proceeds from an averse and unwilling heart?
So Luther is actually very balanced in his view of works and faith. You cannot do works without faith, but neither can you have faith without the works--as posted in the quote previously (post #136).
Last edited by Wardendresden; 08-22-2013 at 10:45 AM..
Reason: formatting
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Martin Luther, catalyst of the Protestant Reformation
