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1 Peter 1:1-25 is a great place to start. Galatians 2:1-21 is the one that can sum it up for you. If you don't have a Bible, don't fret or sweat just go here instead;
Again and again, to protect the false doctrine of lip profession without service the accusation is that we are commending works as a way of getting into heaven.
As I have stated many, many times without Faith there can be no Works, and without Works there can be no Faith.
The title of your thread tries to imply that a certain amount of "works" gets one into heaven. In actuality, Jesus teaches that works are simply the duty of a servant. The works are not even commendable. In response to the apostles saying to the Lord, "Increase our Faith"--his reply
Luke 17:7-19 ESV
Will any one of you who has a servant plowing or keeping sheep say to him when he has come in from the field, 'Come at once and recline at table?' Will he not rather say to him, 'Prepare supper for me, and dress properly, and serve me while I eat and drink, and afterward you will eat and drink?' Does he thank the servant because he did what was commanded? So you also, when you have done all that you were commanded, say, 'We are unworthy servants; we have only done what was our duty."
These are hard statements because even Christians try to glorify how God is going to view them because they "accepted" Jesus or even "worked" for Jesus. If they did both, then they are still unworthy because they have only done their duty.
I do not glorify works anymore than I glorify confession of Christ--even devils confess Christ. When one becomes a Christian he understands that he is now a soldier of Christ and bound by duty to serve Him. But it is no burden, because one who has truly found Christ is honored by knowing God has laid such a duty upon him. In fact, he becomes free in Christ, so that his motives for works come from love of God, and as pitiful as those works may be God honors them.
This is much like Gideon ready to attack the Midianites. We should be ready with all we can muster to fight the enemy, but if it appears to be from human strength, then such work will not honor God. The best works are those that the Christian does, and no one knows that he has done them.
You know, Warden, it seems to be an obsession with the idea that a man could possibly brag about his salvation, which is sort of like a guy overboard in storm tossed seas being pulled in by a life ring thrown to him saying, "Wow, did you see the way I hung onto that life ring? Wasn't it great?!"
You know, Warden, it seems to be an obsession with the idea that a man could possibly brag about his salvation, which is sort of like a guy overboard in storm tossed seas being pulled in by a life ring thrown to him saying, "Wow, did you see the way I hung onto that life ring? Wasn't it great?!"
LOL. And Nate, what is equally fascinating is that even though you and I are probably in vast disagreement over some areas of the scripture, it is still possible for each of us to see the Spirit of God within the writings of the other.
You know, Warden, it seems to be an obsession with the idea that a man could possibly brag about his salvation, which is sort of like a guy overboard in storm tossed seas being pulled in by a life ring thrown to him saying, "Wow, did you see the way I hung onto that life ring? Wasn't it great?!"
<snort> ROFL
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden
LOL. And Nate, what is equally fascinating is that even though you and I are probably in vast disagreement over some areas of the scripture, it is still possible for each of us to see the Spirit of God within the writings of the other.
You know, Warden, it seems to be an obsession with the idea that a man could possibly brag about his salvation, which is sort of like a guy overboard in storm tossed seas being pulled in by a life ring thrown to him saying, "Wow, did you see the way I hung onto that life ring? Wasn't it great?!"
I wonder, if he did say that, do you think they'd throw him back in the water and let him drown?
I wonder, if he did say that, do you think they'd throw him back in the water and let him drown?
Pleroo, I'm not a universalist as are Nate and Mystic, and perhaps you, too. But the difference I have from many who believe in "punishment" by God, is that I have no joy in SEEING punishment take place, even if it is deserved. Too many Christians that hold such a view are fond of throwing it up constantly instead of living the example of Jesus and thereby making people want that more than "escape" from any punishment that may or may not transpire.
And the better question to ask Christians is "Christian, if you threw the life ring to the man would YOU throw him back in the water for his presumption?" For we are commanded to grant mercy, while judgment is reserved to God.
Is there going to be judgment tempered with mercy? I think so, but God won't rejoice over that and neither shall I. But He is the Master of His vineyard and I am but a servant. Should He decide the tares should be harvested with the wheat and/or the grapes, who am I to question my Master? Am I not instead commanded to obey and rejoice in His decisions? And so I shall.
This is how Nate and Mystic and myself can disagree but still see the spirit of God working in each other. For all of us know that it is God who will make the final decision, and our beliefs about His ultimate decisions will not affect our fellowship when we see a brother (or sister) striving to serve God daily.
Those of us who hold that FAITH and WORKS and PERSEVERANCE are all equally important in the sight of God would see those of you who believe the first line of your statement above as essentially believing the same thing that we do. I don't care if you prefer to believe that person was never saved or not. SODINI believed he was saved and going to heaven because of his confession of a doctrine of grace without servanthood which you hold sacred.
If you listened to the entire video there are two real life examples of people who did commit suicide BECAUSE they believed they were eternally saved through lip profession rather than through a combination of confession and service to God. No matter how you cut the mustard seed of faith, that false doctrine has brought about evil--even if you believe they were saved.
And I ask you again, how is it that doctrine which you consider holy can result in justification for doing evil.
International Standard Version
He knew what they were thinking and told them, "Every kingdom divided against itself is destroyed, and every city or household divided against itself will not stand.
Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible
So for doctrine to bring about a belief that evil is justified means that the pure and holy God Who is claimed as authority of such doctrine is divided against Himself.
Satan certainly does not argue against a doctrine that would allow evil to be justified as heavenly. In fact, that is the sweet whisperings into the ears of people that he uses to induce them to serve him. If you reject doctrines that result in evil, you reject Satan. If you do not, then you find yourself, willingly or not, in league with him. "He who is not with me, is against me."
Learn to discern the professors of salvation from the possessors of salvation before you accuse the grace of God of bringing forth evil in a person's life. The catholic church values their obedience over the obedience of Christ by which we are saved. If you aren't resting in the finished work of Christ then you are working in it and will become a person who perverts grace just as the catholic church does.
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The failure of grace without works
