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You are free to believe as you wish, trettep and Katz . . . but I would draw your attention to this explanation of the word used:
Matthew 5:48 King James Version (KJV)
48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
Mat 5:48 Be 2071 ye 5210 therefore 3767 perfect5046, even 5618 as your 5216 Father 3962 which 3588 is in 1722 heaven 3772 is 2076 perfect5046.
5046 = τελειοι = mature 1 Cor 2:6 (perfect)
From Strong's:
In a natural sense the τελειοι are the adult, who, having attained the full limits of stature, strength, and mental power within their reach, have in these respects attained their τελος, as distinguished from the νεοι of young men or boys (Plato, Legg. xi. 929 c; Xenophon, Cyr. viii. 7. 6; Polybius, v. 29. 2). This image of full completed growth, as contrasted with infancy and childhood, underlies the ethical use of τελειοι by St. Paul, he setting these over against the νεπιοι εν Χριστε (1 Cor. 2:6; 14:20; Ephes. 4:13, 14; Phil. 3:15; Heb. 5:14;
Young's says it means "Ended, complete".
I got this from Strong's:
G5046
τέλειος
teleios
tel'-i-os
From G5056; complete (in various applications of labor, growth, mental and moral character, etc.); neuter (as noun, with G3588) completeness: - of full age, man, perfect.
I still say that in this life we are bound to remain imperfect. We will continue to slip from time to time, lose our temper with someone, do something selfish, even think unkind thoughts. It definitely is something to strive for, though. And the wonderful thing is, when we have committed to Jesus Christ to follow Him, we know that even if we fall short, it won't matter. Through His Atonement, all of our sins will be forgiven and forgotten.[/QUOTE]
I am in the position of believing that perfectability is possible, I'm not looking to attain it any time soon.
You are free to believe as you wish, trettep and Katz . . . but I would draw your attention to this explanation of the word used:
Matthew 5:48 King James Version (KJV)
48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
Mat 5:48 Be 2071 ye 5210 therefore 3767 perfect5046, even 5618 as your 5216 Father 3962 which 3588 is in 1722 heaven 3772 is 2076 perfect5046.
5046 = τελειοι = mature 1 Cor 2:6 (perfect)
From Strong's:
In a natural sense the τελειοι are the adult, who, having attained the full limits of stature, strength, and mental power within their reach, have in these respects attained their τελος, as distinguished from the νεοι of young men or boys (Plato, Legg. xi. 929 c; Xenophon, Cyr. viii. 7. 6; Polybius, v. 29. 2). This image of full completed growth, as contrasted with infancy and childhood, underlies the ethical use of τελειοι by St. Paul, he setting these over against the νεπιοι εν Χριστε (1 Cor. 2:6; 14:20; Ephes. 4:13, 14; Phil. 3:15; Heb. 5:14;
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur
Okay, Mystic, you make a good argument. Still, if one has "attained the full limits of stature, strength, and mental power," wouldn't that make him "perfect" with respect to the fact that he would be essentially without flaws, having achieved His full potential in every regard? There would be no shortcomings left to overcome. Power, strength, knowledge, goodness would all be absolute.
Every organism has its own limits of maturity . . . that is what the "within their reach" in the bold refers to. To mature simply means to reach those limits of growth and development that apply to us. This is not rocket science . . . everything alive has a maturity cycle of growth . . . including our embryo Spirit within this physical womb. After our rebirth as Spirit we will have another cycle of growth as newborn Spirits . . . as it was in the beginning and will be forever.
Quote:
Originally Posted by trettep
Young's says it means "Ended, complete".
I got this from Strong's:
G5046
τέλειος
teleios
tel'-i-os
From G5056; complete (in various applications of labor, growth, mental and moral character, etc.); neuter (as noun, with G3588) completeness: - of full age, man, perfect.
The clear intent is to be "fully mature" . . . not some paragon of perfection . . . as the word "perfect" implies in English use today.
Every organism has its own limits of maturity . . . that is what the "within their reach" in the bold refers to. To mature simply means to reach those limits of growth and development that apply to us. This is not rocket science . . . everything alive has a maturity cycle of growth . . . including our embryo Spirit within this physical womb. After our rebirth as Spirit we will have another cycle of growth as newborn Spirits . . . as it was in the beginning and will be forever.
The clear intent is to be "fully mature" . . . not some paragon of perfection . . . as the word "perfect" implies in English use today.
I think we disagree here. I see it as definately as Perfect. I believe if we truely have Christ we have Him who is Perfect in us.
Every organism has its own limits of maturity . . . that is what the "within their reach" in the bold refers to. To mature simply means to reach those limits of growth and development that apply to us. This is not rocket science . . . everything alive has a maturity cycle of growth . . . including our embryo Spirit within this physical womb. After our rebirth as Spirit we will have another cycle of growth as newborn Spirits . . . as it was in the beginning and will be forever.
The clear intent is to be "fully mature" . . . not some paragon of perfection . . . as the word "perfect" implies in English use today.
Quote:
Originally Posted by trettep
I think we disagree here. I see it as definately as Perfect. I believe if we truely have Christ we have Him who is Perfect in us.
That is OK, trettep . . . but if I thought that I needed to mature to perfection in this physical womb . . . I would be very unhappy and a bit worried. We need to mature enough to be "born again" as Spirit . . . just as a human embryo needs to mature enough to be born and survive outside the mother's womb. Neither situation requires perfection. Anyway . . . we can just agree to disagree, my brother.
You really need to understand that we don't have to do anything to be saved by Christ. It is finished. Christ took care of it. We have eternal life. We need to be concerned with what kind of eternal life faces each of us. We can achieve the cover of Christ's perfection by attuning our Spirits to His love for us all. We DO that by trying to "love God and each other" daily and repent when we don't. That will have us "playing in the same key" with Christ's perfect agape love and our imperfections won't matter. If we don't repent . . . we will have some dissonant (off-key) parts of our Spirit that will need to be refined out as dross before we can stand before God under the cover of Christ's perfection. There is nothing magical about it. We are either resonant or dissonant with Christ's agape love.
Completely agree. Christ died for our sins, and those who accept his gift of salvation through belief will be at his side in his kingdom.
With that said: Doctor Eugene Scott had a great analogy. You are saved through Christ, however you should try to live as Christ teaches as best you can. After all, those streets of gold will need someone to sweep them.
In my time of posting in this forum I have noticed there are those who defend a works based approach to salvation even when presented with overwhelming scripture that says otherwise. It is clear to me that those who believe this are content and feel secure in their belief. You make it clear that it is not our works or good deeds that save us but the "works of Christ" in and through us that inevitably result in salvation. With that being said, I would like to ask a question to those of you who hold on to this belief.
How many works or 'works of Christ' does it take to save us?
Even though I have said time and time again that unbelievers are slave to a condition called sin, (not sin the verb, but sin the noun), those of you who do not believe we are saved by grace through faith in the finished work of Christ alone still speak out against what you often call (easy salvation). Well let me just say I don't think it was an easy thing for Jesus to endure what He did on the cross and the bible says He suffered that death for us. In the book of Romans the word "sin" is mentioned 38 times as a noun. That is referring to an actual thing, not an action. Everyone that is born into this world is a slave of sin (noun). No matter how many good things you do, those good deeds can never transfer you into the (noun) righteous state. But now that Jesus has done a prison exchange for us by placing all believers in a condition called righteousness, there is still this idea amongst works based believers that there is still some work to be done. There was something left unfinished at the cross in your eyes. The problem with this thinking is that it makes Adam's sin that condemned us all have more power than the righteous act of obedience Jesus did for us at the cross. When you believe in Jesus and His finished work, He covers you with His righteousness. Nothing you do or don't do can make you any more or less righteous than Jesus has already made you. You're still living in the ways of Cain by still bringing your harvest of fruits (the works of your hands) to God. Those of us who believe in saved by grace are walking in the way of Abel, who brought the sacrifice to God and was shown favor. But like Abel who was attacked and killed for receiving his unearned, undeserved favor from God, we believers in grace salvation are being attacked and trying to be silenced by those who believe otherwise. That should tell you immediately that your belief in works are the wrong approach to God.
With that being said, it seems there are some things that need to be answered by those who do not believe in grace salvation.
What if we die before all of our sin has been "put down in our flesh" as you say?
What if we die before having the right amount of the "works of Christ" in us?
How many "works of Christ" in us and through us does it take to save a soul?
Where is there rest and security if we have unfinished business with God?
Have you heard the saying of the son of man; "The man who has faith in me will do the works I do."
Once you start doing the works of the son of man you have faith in God and him. If you don't do those works you have no faith and no eternal life.
"Walk in the light while you have it or darkness will come over you."
"Once you have the light keep faith in the light and you will become a child of light."
Have you heard the saying of the son of man; "The man who has faith in me will do the works I do."
Once you start doing the works of the son of man you have faith in God and him. If you don't do those works you have no faith and no eternal life.
"Walk in the light while you have it or darkness will come over you."
"Once you have the light keep faith in the light and you will become a child of light."
Great post.
What is interesting is that the crowd that says Faith only is doesn't understand that Jesus said that if He doesn't do the works of His Father then don't believe. He said this BEFORE He was crucified. They say to believe in the Finished work of the cross. Yet the Apostles believed BEFORE the crucifixion.
Here is what Jesus says:
Joh 10:37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
Have you heard the saying of the son of man; "The man who has faith in me will do the works I do."
Once you start doing the works of the son of man you have faith in God and him. If you don't do those works you have no faith and no eternal life.
"Walk in the light while you have it or darkness will come over you."
"Once you have the light keep faith in the light and you will become a child of light."
Jesus made you a child of light by His blood. Believing in His once and for all sacrifice causes a person to be born again. This is something God does to you. Its not something you do to yourself. You only consent to it happening. Once you are born again the good fruits happen naturally apart from your efforts. If they come form your efforts they are not good fruits, less they be motivated by the holy spirit.
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